8 ms·

It'd be interesting to see a comparison between the various ways roads can be made safer for driving in wintry conditions. Plowing is clearly important, but pu

by bradfa 6y ago

It'd be interesting to see a comparison between the various ways roads can be made safer for driving in wintry conditions. Plowing is clearly important, but putting down salt vs sand and gravel vs beat juice vs other solutions. I want to see the performance of various types of vehicles on a test course when using different types of tires (all season vs winter tires at least) and the different salt-alternatives. For the cost of the alternatives, do any of them get close to the performance of salt? Obviously salt is the cheapest, otherwise it wouldn't be in such high use. Maybe the price of salt going up will create a viable market for other solutions? Maybe some environmental concerns about salt use plus the cost going up will spurn development or cost reductions of competing solutions? Markets being manipulated isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes people realize they don't need the thing whose market is being manipulated any longer as there's viable alternatives.

duxup 6y ago
I'd be wary of say expending a lot more money on an alternative / more expensive solution... just because someone cornered the market.
- wongarsu 6y ago
  You can use it as a scorched earth tactic. If the market disappears as soon as it's cornered, in the long term people will stop cornering markets. But more importantly if you use a solution with a lot of known downsides for the sole reason that it's the cheapest, reevaluating that decision when costs rise is the prudent thing to do.
  - duxup 6y ago
    > in the long term people will stop cornering markets I'm not at all convinced that is the case. > if you use a solution with a lot of known downsides for the sole reason that it's the cheapest I don't think your scenario means people will somehow consider something they didn't consider before. More likely in a disruptive event folks do whatever they can to fill the gap at the lowest price again ... I think you're expecting efficiencies / consideration here that simply doesn't happen... or maybe already have.
EdwardDiego 6y ago
This may just be a "Just-So" story, but in NZ we've found that Euro cars tend to go to utter shit after six years, requiring their purchase price and then some in spare parts to fix, and that this lifetime exists, because in Europe, after 5 or so years of driving on salted roads, they're corroded to shit, so the cars are engineered to go great for those 5 or so years because afterwards they'll be rooted so what does it matter. Really want to clarify that this is an Aotearoa urban legend, and I have no idea if it's true or not. I will say though, that finding a running 2005 BMW that hasn't required multiple parts replaced is never heard of. Whereas a 2005 Toyota, no worries. I guess I like this theory because the alternative is that Euro cars are just built badly compared to Jappas.
- corty 6y ago
  European cars, especially German ones, are built for company leasing markets almost exclusively. After the 5 year lease is up, it will be resold. To make more money for the manufacturer, it needs to start breaking down and requiring parts at that point. So everything is engineered to last exactly 5 years.
  - EdwardDiego 6y ago
    Huh, well that makes sense. When I first travelled to München for work, I was amazed at the amount of luxury cars driving around Schwabing, until a German colleague mentioned that they were all most likely leased.
    - wongarsu 6y ago
      München is the most expensive city to live in in Germany. If you commute there you probably use public transport, if you life there you earn enough that you probably have a company car. In Germany about 1/8th of all cars and 2/3 of all new cars are company cars.
  - phicoh 6y ago
    I don't know about Germany, but The Netherlands has a significant market for second hand cars, and many cars, including German ones, are sold for serious amounts of money when they are 10 years old. It is instructive to go to scrapyards. Typically many parts of a car are quite cheap. Some parts has some sort of design error and fail in almost all cars of the same model. However that varies from model to model and from brand to brand. Of course, the lease market prefers low maintainance costs. So it makes sense for manufactures to optimize in reducing those costs during typical maintainance periods. But that does not imply that after 5 years or so, maintainance is suddenly sky high.
zdragnar 6y ago
Sand isn't all that useful at temperatures near freezing- as the snow / ice melts a bit in the sun, it sinks in, and you end up with fresh glaze as it cools and refreeze. Using salt or similar to completely melt the cover allows it to drain off the road or sublimate, leaving the road dry.
- bradfa 6y ago
  Yeah, and I'd like to see a scientific study about this to show how it works and so people can understand it. A significant amount of money is spent on clearing and treating roads during wintry weather, I think it would be very beneficial to understand why taxpayers spend this money and what they get in return. Additionally, if information such as "winter tires are X% better at stopping/turning than all season tires when treating roads with Y" could be presented, then maybe more people would opt to purchase winter tires (or maybe the opposite) depending on what types of solutions the local government uses.
  - nemo44x 6y ago
    Why tax payers spend the money: so roads are safe to travel on. What they get: safe roads to travel on. I don’t think we need a study here.
  - zdragnar 6y ago
    A brief google search brought up a PDF for winter tires from the traffic injury reduction foundation, with the basic conclusion that yes, they are better, but updated studies are needed for exact numbers. Walk into any car tire store, and you will see displays for winter tires claiming anywhere from 25-35% improved stopping distance. Of course, with less frequent plowing, salting and sanding, these numbers likely go out the window. They get you better stopping distance, but they aren't magic and it is still worse than all season tires on a dry, summer road. If you want safer winter roads, you use salt and / or sand and plow every time significant accumulation of snow occurs.
    - destitude 6y ago
      I drive on unplowed paved roads and I can tell you from first hand experience that there is a world of difference between snow tires and all season tires. The chemistry of the tire itself is different. All season tires start getting hard around 40F whereas snow tires stay soft/rubbery below 40F and colder. This is fundamentally why snow tires are superior for snowy/icy conditions. This is also why you should not use snow tires in summer because they will wear very fast due to the composition being soft.
peeters 6y ago
> Obviously salt is the cheapest, otherwise it wouldn't be in such high use. Not sure why you would assume that's obvious. The various solutions vary in effectiveness due to a number of factors, and are not equal in what they actually do. Sand doesn't melt ice, it provides traction. It's better when it's cold enough for the ice to stay ice. Salt melts ice, but is less effective in lower temperatures, and causes lots of fallout (corrosion, etc). Meanwhile plowing is the only real solution for heavy snowfall.
- curryst 6y ago
  A small thing to add, not all road salt is the same. Some contain additional additives that allow them to be effective at lower temperatures. From what I recall, the low temperature salt is more expensive though.
  - cbsmith 6y ago
    Yup. They've got calcium chloride & magnesium chloride.
    - NegativeLatency 6y ago
      De-sugared beet juice is a common additive too
      - cbsmith 6y ago
        Oh yes, absolutely.
hourislate 6y ago
A possible solution is allowing studded tires and making snow tires mandatory at certain times of the year (Quebec does this). Studded tires would make driving a lot safer in icy conditions and snow tires are an incredible improvement over regular tires in wintry conditions (tradeoff is they tear up the roads). Winter Tire tech has vastly improved over the years and most manufacturers have added a feature for Icy conditions (sip their tires - https://www.discounttire.com/learn/tire-sipes https://www.discounttire.com/learn/tire-sipes ). Salt may be cheap but there are environmental costs. Recently this news article was published about how Toronto rivers are seeing high levels of salt. If it's happening in Toronto, I'm sure it's happening all over the mid west and north east. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/road-salt-gta-water-1.4515132 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/road-salt-gta-water-1...
- Hayvok 6y ago
  I think what might make this tough for midwestern states is that the snow doesn't stick around all winter. It's not unheard of to have 4-5 big snows that melt relatively quickly and most of the winter you're just dealing with cold weather. If you won't have a reliable snow pack you can guarantee you'll be driving on for three or four months it's hard to justify swapping out for snow tires or chains.
  - 3131s 6y ago
    What will make it tough is that our roads already get destroyed every winter without the help of spiked tires. In MN the entire summer is filled with road construction already. I wouldn't be that thrilled about switching my tires 2x every year either.
    - mauvehaus 6y ago
      Get the winter set mounted on a second set of steel rims. It's a 45 minute job with the scissor jack that came with the car, less with anything better. It's a nice excuse to spend a little time outside on a pleasant spring or fall afternoon.
waterheater 6y ago
Well, you can design the roads better. Two primary ways are used. The first is material properties. For example, it's possible to make roads using asphalt mixtures which naturally prevent ice from forming. I've heard a rumor that the Autobahn is made of such a compound, but I can't find corroborating evidence right now. The second is shaping the surface. For example, leaving parallel grooves in the driving surface increases traction. See the first picture at this link for an example: https://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/construction/concrete-paving-colorado-style_o https://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/construction/con... The latter technique is used widely across the Midwest. I'm not certain about usage of the former, but road maintenance costs are significantly higher in the Midwest than other parts of the country thanks to multiple freeze-thaw cycles per year, so switching to a ice-mitigating compound may not be cost-effective when balancing multiple variables. If an ice-mitigating compound reduces roadway durability, you'll avoid it since you'll need to send a plow over the road anyways to clear the snow...
- namibj 6y ago
  No, the Autobahn just doesn't typically get that cold and has highest priority access to snow plows.
destitude 6y ago
"salt is cheapest" does not take into account all the associated damages they cause as well, from eating away at bridges, roads, and vehicles, to polluting waterways that are starting to kill off freshwater fish.
fomine3 6y ago
Why isn't tire chains solution for rarely snowed area?

by bradfa 6y ago

duxup 6y ago

I'd be wary of say expending a lot more money on an alternative / more expensive solution... just because someone cornered the market.

wongarsu 6y ago
You can use it as a scorched earth tactic. If the market disappears as soon as it's cornered, in the long term people will stop cornering markets. But more importantly if you use a solution with a lot of known downsides for the sole reason that it's the cheapest, reevaluating that decision when costs rise is the prudent thing to do.
- duxup 6y ago
  > in the long term people will stop cornering markets I'm not at all convinced that is the case. > if you use a solution with a lot of known downsides for the sole reason that it's the cheapest I don't think your scenario means people will somehow consider something they didn't consider before. More likely in a disruptive event folks do whatever they can to fill the gap at the lowest price again ... I think you're expecting efficiencies / consideration here that simply doesn't happen... or maybe already have.

EdwardDiego 6y ago

This may just be a "Just-So" story, but in NZ we've found that Euro cars tend to go to utter shit after six years, requiring their purchase price and then some in spare parts to fix, and that this lifetime exists, because in Europe, after 5 or so years of driving on salted roads, they're corroded to shit, so the cars are engineered to go great for those 5 or so years because afterwards they'll be rooted so what does it matter. Really want to clarify that this is an Aotearoa urban legend, and I have no idea if it's true or not. I will say though, that finding a running 2005 BMW that hasn't required multiple parts replaced is never heard of. Whereas a 2005 Toyota, no worries. I guess I like this theory because the alternative is that Euro cars are just built badly compared to Jappas.

corty 6y ago
European cars, especially German ones, are built for company leasing markets almost exclusively. After the 5 year lease is up, it will be resold. To make more money for the manufacturer, it needs to start breaking down and requiring parts at that point. So everything is engineered to last exactly 5 years.
- EdwardDiego 6y ago
  Huh, well that makes sense. When I first travelled to München for work, I was amazed at the amount of luxury cars driving around Schwabing, until a German colleague mentioned that they were all most likely leased.
  - wongarsu 6y ago
    München is the most expensive city to live in in Germany. If you commute there you probably use public transport, if you life there you earn enough that you probably have a company car. In Germany about 1/8th of all cars and 2/3 of all new cars are company cars.
- phicoh 6y ago
  I don't know about Germany, but The Netherlands has a significant market for second hand cars, and many cars, including German ones, are sold for serious amounts of money when they are 10 years old. It is instructive to go to scrapyards. Typically many parts of a car are quite cheap. Some parts has some sort of design error and fail in almost all cars of the same model. However that varies from model to model and from brand to brand. Of course, the lease market prefers low maintainance costs. So it makes sense for manufactures to optimize in reducing those costs during typical maintainance periods. But that does not imply that after 5 years or so, maintainance is suddenly sky high.

zdragnar 6y ago

Sand isn't all that useful at temperatures near freezing- as the snow / ice melts a bit in the sun, it sinks in, and you end up with fresh glaze as it cools and refreeze. Using salt or similar to completely melt the cover allows it to drain off the road or sublimate, leaving the road dry.

bradfa 6y ago
Yeah, and I'd like to see a scientific study about this to show how it works and so people can understand it. A significant amount of money is spent on clearing and treating roads during wintry weather, I think it would be very beneficial to understand why taxpayers spend this money and what they get in return. Additionally, if information such as "winter tires are X% better at stopping/turning than all season tires when treating roads with Y" could be presented, then maybe more people would opt to purchase winter tires (or maybe the opposite) depending on what types of solutions the local government uses.
- nemo44x 6y ago
  Why tax payers spend the money: so roads are safe to travel on. What they get: safe roads to travel on. I don’t think we need a study here.
- zdragnar 6y ago
  A brief google search brought up a PDF for winter tires from the traffic injury reduction foundation, with the basic conclusion that yes, they are better, but updated studies are needed for exact numbers. Walk into any car tire store, and you will see displays for winter tires claiming anywhere from 25-35% improved stopping distance. Of course, with less frequent plowing, salting and sanding, these numbers likely go out the window. They get you better stopping distance, but they aren't magic and it is still worse than all season tires on a dry, summer road. If you want safer winter roads, you use salt and / or sand and plow every time significant accumulation of snow occurs.
  - destitude 6y ago
    I drive on unplowed paved roads and I can tell you from first hand experience that there is a world of difference between snow tires and all season tires. The chemistry of the tire itself is different. All season tires start getting hard around 40F whereas snow tires stay soft/rubbery below 40F and colder. This is fundamentally why snow tires are superior for snowy/icy conditions. This is also why you should not use snow tires in summer because they will wear very fast due to the composition being soft.

peeters 6y ago

> Obviously salt is the cheapest, otherwise it wouldn't be in such high use. Not sure why you would assume that's obvious. The various solutions vary in effectiveness due to a number of factors, and are not equal in what they actually do. Sand doesn't melt ice, it provides traction. It's better when it's cold enough for the ice to stay ice. Salt melts ice, but is less effective in lower temperatures, and causes lots of fallout (corrosion, etc). Meanwhile plowing is the only real solution for heavy snowfall.

curryst 6y ago
A small thing to add, not all road salt is the same. Some contain additional additives that allow them to be effective at lower temperatures. From what I recall, the low temperature salt is more expensive though.
- cbsmith 6y ago
  Yup. They've got calcium chloride & magnesium chloride.
  - NegativeLatency 6y ago
    De-sugared beet juice is a common additive too
    - cbsmith 6y ago
      Oh yes, absolutely.

hourislate 6y ago

A possible solution is allowing studded tires and making snow tires mandatory at certain times of the year (Quebec does this). Studded tires would make driving a lot safer in icy conditions and snow tires are an incredible improvement over regular tires in wintry conditions (tradeoff is they tear up the roads). Winter Tire tech has vastly improved over the years and most manufacturers have added a feature for Icy conditions (sip their tires - https://www.discounttire.com/learn/tire-sipes https://www.discounttire.com/learn/tire-sipes ). Salt may be cheap but there are environmental costs. Recently this news article was published about how Toronto rivers are seeing high levels of salt. If it's happening in Toronto, I'm sure it's happening all over the mid west and north east. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/road-salt-gta-water-1.4515132 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/road-salt-gta-water-1...

Hayvok 6y ago
I think what might make this tough for midwestern states is that the snow doesn't stick around all winter. It's not unheard of to have 4-5 big snows that melt relatively quickly and most of the winter you're just dealing with cold weather. If you won't have a reliable snow pack you can guarantee you'll be driving on for three or four months it's hard to justify swapping out for snow tires or chains.
- 3131s 6y ago
  What will make it tough is that our roads already get destroyed every winter without the help of spiked tires. In MN the entire summer is filled with road construction already. I wouldn't be that thrilled about switching my tires 2x every year either.
  - mauvehaus 6y ago
    Get the winter set mounted on a second set of steel rims. It's a 45 minute job with the scissor jack that came with the car, less with anything better. It's a nice excuse to spend a little time outside on a pleasant spring or fall afternoon.

waterheater 6y ago

Well, you can design the roads better. Two primary ways are used. The first is material properties. For example, it's possible to make roads using asphalt mixtures which naturally prevent ice from forming. I've heard a rumor that the Autobahn is made of such a compound, but I can't find corroborating evidence right now. The second is shaping the surface. For example, leaving parallel grooves in the driving surface increases traction. See the first picture at this link for an example: https://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/construction/concrete-paving-colorado-style_o https://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/construction/con... The latter technique is used widely across the Midwest. I'm not certain about usage of the former, but road maintenance costs are significantly higher in the Midwest than other parts of the country thanks to multiple freeze-thaw cycles per year, so switching to a ice-mitigating compound may not be cost-effective when balancing multiple variables. If an ice-mitigating compound reduces roadway durability, you'll avoid it since you'll need to send a plow over the road anyways to clear the snow...

namibj 6y ago
No, the Autobahn just doesn't typically get that cold and has highest priority access to snow plows.

destitude 6y ago

"salt is cheapest" does not take into account all the associated damages they cause as well, from eating away at bridges, roads, and vehicles, to polluting waterways that are starting to kill off freshwater fish.

fomine3 6y ago

Why isn't tire chains solution for rarely snowed area?