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> cultural factors that make software development harder for those who can’t pass as white males Racist remarks like this need to stop. Being White or not has

> cultural factors that make software development harder for those who can’t pass as white males Racist remarks like this need to stop. Being White or not has nothing to do with learning tech. Available resources (internet, libraries, universities) are available usually for free or small fees for everyone regardless of race (at least in the European case). Most other countries in the world haven’t even a significant White minority, and when they have one, they are not plotting against non-White to hinder their learning of technology (often quite the reverse, in fact).

paedubucher 6y ago
I actually got in touch with the author because of this remark, because this subject wasn't even discussed in the article at all. It looks like virtue signaling to me. Such remarks really make me cringe.
qrbLPHiKpiux 6y ago
Racist remarks like the author said need to stop. It only promotes racism. This critical race theory is doing more damage than all history combined.
tester34 6y ago
Indeed It's not only racist, but also does not promote outperforming. You can either sit and complain or try hard to skew the odds that are against you.
statstutor 6y ago
> Available resources (internet, libraries, universities) (mentors, support from authority, sufficient time/financing to be able to use the available resources) If a professor believes consciously or subconsciously, by looking at you, that you're less likely to succeed, that's a significant barrier that may well be immediately fatal to your interest in a subject. The frequency with which this kind of thing is said out loud is astonishing. E.g.: https://abc11.com/education/nc-state-professor-suspended-for-calling-women-useless-in-lecture/5585611/ https://abc11.com/education/nc-state-professor-suspended-for... If you've never personally witnessed quiet sexism (against women) and quiet racism (against non-white and in particular black people) in computer science, then I question where you have been.
- Toutouxc 6y ago
  > If you've never personally witnessed quiet sexism (against women) and quiet racism (against non-white and in particular black people) in computer science, then I question where you have been. In an overwhelmingly white European country. Out of the 900 people I went to uni with around a hundred were women and < 10 were not white.
  - macg333 6y ago
    Were you friends with many of the women and non-white students? Did they share their experiences with you?
    - Toutouxc 6y ago
      That's not what "personally witnessed" means.
      - macg333 6y ago
        I am aware. I'm just asking a follow up question to understand your understanding of those folks in your program.
screye 6y ago
Yep. This is especially true in 2021, where diversity hiring and affirmative action on racial and gender lines are at an all time high. I am not saying they are wrong. But the argument that white (and asian?) males have an inherent cultural advantage that's so outsized that significant differences in hiring/promotion/outreach standards cannot overcome it, is bogus. Qualifier: Arguments around lack of maternity accomodations and an inherent class divide are completely valid. I am not referring to those.
jwond 6y ago
Exactly. All this pervasive whinging about "white males" is getting really tiring, like when the Smithsonian described traits like hard work, objective thinking, etc. as aspects of "whiteness"[0]. I mean yeah, if you erroneously associate all of these positive traits that drive success with "whiteness" or "white males", then I can see how you would conclude that "white males" have some sort of unfair advantage. [0] https://www.newsweek.com/smithsonian-race-guidelines-rational-thinking-hard-work-are-white-values-1518333 https://www.newsweek.com/smithsonian-race-guidelines-rationa...
- shadowfiend 6y ago
  It seems to me that you have precisely missed the point. In particular, you give away your own worries in your frustration that something being described as part of _white culture_ must be implied to be _bad_. Have you investigated the source material? Engaged with it by doing the hard work of reading it and thinking about it objectively, which you seem to believe are positive ways to approach knowledge? Or are you reacting emotionally to your perception of a one-pager extracted from a whole body of work? Have you considered that some of the traits you're describing may have alternate combinations of traits that could also result in positive outcomes if they existed as the dominant traits? These are just a few questions that arise for me from your snippy post. If you engaged with the material linked from that Newsweek article, you might come up with more.
shadowfiend 6y ago
It's not clear what you're saying here, other than concluding that the disclaimer in question is racist (despite the fact that people who can't pass as white males, at least in the US, quite frequently report a difficult experience---even those who are successful). Do you think that having the internet, libraries, and universities is the only thing that can make it easier to learn technology? Does having time factor into that? Time to use the internet, time to go to the library, time to study for university. If having time factors into it, would you consider that having money factors into having time? If having money factors into having time, would you consider that race often factors into having money? If you would say that race may factor into having money, would you consider that this may be due to systemic effects? And if you would grant that there may be such systemic effects, do you think these effects may persist to some extent even for those who do manage to learn tech? Obviously there are a lot of links in that chain, and you may disagree with more than one of them, but I'd be interested in which link in the chain breaks---or if you're trying to say something beyond this chain. I'm interested in the “quite the reverse” note, as well---what are some examples of countries in the world with a white minority where the country in question plots to hinder white peoples' learning of technology?

paedubucher 6y ago

I actually got in touch with the author because of this remark, because this subject wasn't even discussed in the article at all. It looks like virtue signaling to me. Such remarks really make me cringe.

qrbLPHiKpiux 6y ago

Racist remarks like the author said need to stop. It only promotes racism. This critical race theory is doing more damage than all history combined.

tester34 6y ago

Indeed It's not only racist, but also does not promote outperforming. You can either sit and complain or try hard to skew the odds that are against you.

statstutor 6y ago

> Available resources (internet, libraries, universities) (mentors, support from authority, sufficient time/financing to be able to use the available resources) If a professor believes consciously or subconsciously, by looking at you, that you're less likely to succeed, that's a significant barrier that may well be immediately fatal to your interest in a subject. The frequency with which this kind of thing is said out loud is astonishing. E.g.: https://abc11.com/education/nc-state-professor-suspended-for-calling-women-useless-in-lecture/5585611/ https://abc11.com/education/nc-state-professor-suspended-for... If you've never personally witnessed quiet sexism (against women) and quiet racism (against non-white and in particular black people) in computer science, then I question where you have been.

Toutouxc 6y ago
> If you've never personally witnessed quiet sexism (against women) and quiet racism (against non-white and in particular black people) in computer science, then I question where you have been. In an overwhelmingly white European country. Out of the 900 people I went to uni with around a hundred were women and < 10 were not white.
- macg333 6y ago
  Were you friends with many of the women and non-white students? Did they share their experiences with you?
  - Toutouxc 6y ago
    That's not what "personally witnessed" means.
    - macg333 6y ago
      I am aware. I'm just asking a follow up question to understand your understanding of those folks in your program.

screye 6y ago

Yep. This is especially true in 2021, where diversity hiring and affirmative action on racial and gender lines are at an all time high. I am not saying they are wrong. But the argument that white (and asian?) males have an inherent cultural advantage that's so outsized that significant differences in hiring/promotion/outreach standards cannot overcome it, is bogus. Qualifier: Arguments around lack of maternity accomodations and an inherent class divide are completely valid. I am not referring to those.

jwond 6y ago

Exactly. All this pervasive whinging about "white males" is getting really tiring, like when the Smithsonian described traits like hard work, objective thinking, etc. as aspects of "whiteness"[0]. I mean yeah, if you erroneously associate all of these positive traits that drive success with "whiteness" or "white males", then I can see how you would conclude that "white males" have some sort of unfair advantage. [0] https://www.newsweek.com/smithsonian-race-guidelines-rational-thinking-hard-work-are-white-values-1518333 https://www.newsweek.com/smithsonian-race-guidelines-rationa...

shadowfiend 6y ago
It seems to me that you have precisely missed the point. In particular, you give away your own worries in your frustration that something being described as part of _white culture_ must be implied to be _bad_. Have you investigated the source material? Engaged with it by doing the hard work of reading it and thinking about it objectively, which you seem to believe are positive ways to approach knowledge? Or are you reacting emotionally to your perception of a one-pager extracted from a whole body of work? Have you considered that some of the traits you're describing may have alternate combinations of traits that could also result in positive outcomes if they existed as the dominant traits? These are just a few questions that arise for me from your snippy post. If you engaged with the material linked from that Newsweek article, you might come up with more.

shadowfiend 6y ago

It's not clear what you're saying here, other than concluding that the disclaimer in question is racist (despite the fact that people who can't pass as white males, at least in the US, quite frequently report a difficult experience---even those who are successful). Do you think that having the internet, libraries, and universities is the only thing that can make it easier to learn technology? Does having time factor into that? Time to use the internet, time to go to the library, time to study for university. If having time factors into it, would you consider that having money factors into having time? If having money factors into having time, would you consider that race often factors into having money? If you would say that race may factor into having money, would you consider that this may be due to systemic effects? And if you would grant that there may be such systemic effects, do you think these effects may persist to some extent even for those who do manage to learn tech? Obviously there are a lot of links in that chain, and you may disagree with more than one of them, but I'd be interested in which link in the chain breaks---or if you're trying to say something beyond this chain. I'm interested in the “quite the reverse” note, as well---what are some examples of countries in the world with a white minority where the country in question plots to hinder white peoples' learning of technology?