8 ms·

But why? I recently ran Netscape 4 for the giggles and +90% of the web no longer functions as I could not load the pages due to the protocols no longer being s

by buro9 6y ago

But why? I recently ran Netscape 4 for the giggles and +90% of the web no longer functions as I could not load the pages due to the protocols no longer being supported. You may be testing against JS features but in reality those browsers cannot function on the open internet as their protocol and security stacks aren't supported. A simple check of caniuse.com is sufficient, but if you're worried here's which browsers are in use https://caniuse.com/usage-table https://caniuse.com/usage-table . Netscape no longer even registers.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
Because I can. Because I like them. Because I believe in Any Browser. Because of retro-computing. Because with every known scenario I cover, several more unanticipated ones are also covered. Also, yes, I can imagine being limited to a particular older version of a browser, NN 2.0 included. Because it's fun as heck. Because I'm fucking tired of browser monoculture and I want the Web to be compatible again. If I, one determined developer, can make it work in Mosaic, IE3, Netscape, Opera 3 and 12, Lynx, Links, Dillo, Netsurf, w3m, PaleMoon, Waterfox, Google Translate, and yeah, with some grinding, Chrome, with and without JS, hopefully some devs out there feel embarrassed for their code and try a little harder...
- ssijak 6y ago
  Why would anyone ever be embarrassed that their code from 2021 is not working on IE3 or Netscape?
  - KaiserPro 6y ago
    why would a watchmaker be embarrassed for not polishing the inside of a case that only the watchmaker can see?
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      Best answer I've seen :)
    - ssijak 6y ago
      It is false analogy.
      - forgotmypw17 6y ago
        Can you explain what is false about it?
        DC1350 6y ago
        Because the standards you’re building against are arbitrary and just made up by other people. I can make a browser that crashes when it encounters a <div> tag. It’s a shitty browser. Will you feel bad when your stuff won’t work on it?
        forgotmypw17 6y ago
        You're describing something purposely made non-functional, while I am building against software widely distributed and still occasionally encountered in the real world, hardly arbitrary.
        DC1350 6y ago
        Do you test for compatibility with the Wii and Nintendo DS browsers?
        forgotmypw17 6y ago
        I have not yet, but I would like to. If you can help, I would appreciate it. Due to the wide variety of scenarios and configurations I already have tested with, I think it would be more likely than not that I'd be able to complete my base features test script with few issues. Your question is a perfect example of why I go so far with testing.
        DC1350 6y ago
        Ok. I tried to make fun of you but you’re still friendly so I’m curious. Do you mind if I ask what kind of stuff you’re maintaining where you see any traffic from these old browsers? Do you think it would ever be possible to transpile a site into some shared common set of syntax/features/whatever instead of making browser specific corrections? And what do you think about features like WebGL which are impossible to replicate on older browsers in a performant way?
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    Well, maybe not IE3, but I think it is embarrassing to deny access to, e.g. a five-year-old device with no upgrade path. Many devs are out of touch with the world where people can't afford a new one. I don't buy the security argument either, it's often just information access which is limited.
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
>I recently ran Netscape 4 for the giggles and +90% of the web no longer functions as I could not load the pages due to the protocols no longer being supported. Netscape 4 - some minor version - had a bug where if you had a paragraph inside of a list item inside of a div inside of a div it crashed the browser. (I may be misremembering the bug but it was something ridiculous like this) it was hard to debug for markup that was generated via XSL-T. So anyway even if the protocols still worked, I don't think you can really expect it to work too much.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  I didn't say I use them as a daily driver. I expect to be able to use all the base features.
forgotmypw17 6y ago
Netscape 4 is one of my all-time favorite browsers. I stuck with it for many years, because it was blazing fast on my older hardware, and cached well, unlike IE. Like you, I sometimes take it out for a spin "for the giggles". It's comforting and it works well with my own sites. I don't worry much about mitm for my purposes, and HTTP still works great, a testament to its design.

by buro9 6y ago

forgotmypw17 6y ago

Because I can. Because I like them. Because I believe in Any Browser. Because of retro-computing. Because with every known scenario I cover, several more unanticipated ones are also covered. Also, yes, I can imagine being limited to a particular older version of a browser, NN 2.0 included. Because it's fun as heck. Because I'm fucking tired of browser monoculture and I want the Web to be compatible again. If I, one determined developer, can make it work in Mosaic, IE3, Netscape, Opera 3 and 12, Lynx, Links, Dillo, Netsurf, w3m, PaleMoon, Waterfox, Google Translate, and yeah, with some grinding, Chrome, with and without JS, hopefully some devs out there feel embarrassed for their code and try a little harder...

ssijak 6y ago
Why would anyone ever be embarrassed that their code from 2021 is not working on IE3 or Netscape?
- KaiserPro 6y ago
  why would a watchmaker be embarrassed for not polishing the inside of a case that only the watchmaker can see?
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    Best answer I've seen :)
  - ssijak 6y ago
    It is false analogy.
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      Can you explain what is false about it?
      - DC1350 6y ago
        Because the standards you’re building against are arbitrary and just made up by other people. I can make a browser that crashes when it encounters a <div> tag. It’s a shitty browser. Will you feel bad when your stuff won’t work on it?
        forgotmypw17 6y ago
        You're describing something purposely made non-functional, while I am building against software widely distributed and still occasionally encountered in the real world, hardly arbitrary.
        DC1350 6y ago
        Do you test for compatibility with the Wii and Nintendo DS browsers?
        forgotmypw17 6y ago
        I have not yet, but I would like to. If you can help, I would appreciate it. Due to the wide variety of scenarios and configurations I already have tested with, I think it would be more likely than not that I'd be able to complete my base features test script with few issues. Your question is a perfect example of why I go so far with testing.
        DC1350 6y ago
        Ok. I tried to make fun of you but you’re still friendly so I’m curious. Do you mind if I ask what kind of stuff you’re maintaining where you see any traffic from these old browsers? Do you think it would ever be possible to transpile a site into some shared common set of syntax/features/whatever instead of making browser specific corrections? And what do you think about features like WebGL which are impossible to replicate on older browsers in a performant way?
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  Well, maybe not IE3, but I think it is embarrassing to deny access to, e.g. a five-year-old device with no upgrade path. Many devs are out of touch with the world where people can't afford a new one. I don't buy the security argument either, it's often just information access which is limited.

bryanrasmussen 6y ago

>I recently ran Netscape 4 for the giggles and +90% of the web no longer functions as I could not load the pages due to the protocols no longer being supported. Netscape 4 - some minor version - had a bug where if you had a paragraph inside of a list item inside of a div inside of a div it crashed the browser. (I may be misremembering the bug but it was something ridiculous like this) it was hard to debug for markup that was generated via XSL-T. So anyway even if the protocols still worked, I don't think you can really expect it to work too much.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
I didn't say I use them as a daily driver. I expect to be able to use all the base features.

forgotmypw17 6y ago

Netscape 4 is one of my all-time favorite browsers. I stuck with it for many years, because it was blazing fast on my older hardware, and cached well, unlike IE. Like you, I sometimes take it out for a spin "for the giggles". It's comforting and it works well with my own sites. I don't worry much about mitm for my purposes, and HTTP still works great, a testament to its design.