5 ms·

Google Photos circumvents iOS 14 photos privacy features

47 points by cjv 6y ago

sircastor 6y ago
This is pretty egregious, but not surprising. Google wants that data and is willing to do whatever it takes to get it. I’ma little surprised though as other Google apps (hangouts) behaves and asks for access to additional photos every time I try and send a picture.
ggm 6y ago
I am going to put a different spin on this: If you use a service like google photos, wouldn't you want to uplift all your photos, albums and metadata into the service? Viewed from the "be maximally useful" perspective, it makes sense. I have 150,000 photos (maybe) -I don't want to approve each one. Even at the album granularity, I have thousands of albums. We all do. Yes, its a giant, egregious privacy breach. That is pretty much definitional for a cloud based Photo archive/album service.
- crescentfresh 6y ago
  I use google photos. I also certainly do NOT want to upload all my photos, albums and metadata into the service. Having said that I would still allow full access to all my photos on my device for the convenience of being able to scroll through my thousands of photos to select the 20-100 I want to upload.
- floatingatoll 6y ago
  Nope, that's not what I would want to use Google Photos for.
  - ggm 6y ago
    then.. keep on granting per photo I guess? If they made that impossible thats a dark anti pattern
    - cassianoleal 6y ago
      I take it you didn't even click the OP? Because that's exactly what this is about, and nothing else.
- zwily 6y ago
  You can easily grant Google Photos access to all your photos. Why do you think others should not be allowed to specify a subset?
  - ggm 6y ago
    per album would be nice I guess. see, this is why I love HN. it makes me think!
- thitcanh 6y ago
  It depends on what you use it for. I only use it to access a non-personal library, but Google Photos still shows all of my local photos in every account. That renders the app useless for me. Google Photo only wants to be a full replacement for your Photos app and doesn't allow any other usage. That's user-hostile. The worst part is that iOS 14 initially let me use Google Photos exactly the way I wanted, until Google (pretty quickly) added the block described by OP.
  - ggm 6y ago
    yea I kinda see this now
megraf 6y ago
I don't agree with the title at all. Detecting the auth level of access to photos is documented (PHAuthorizationStatus). Google photos is simply refusing to let you use their app all unless you grant them access to view all of your photos. I'm all for privacy -far beyond the average person- but this seems like one of those cases of uninstall it and move on if you don't agree with the product decision. Fwiw: Not a fan of google. Currently on iCloud + Flickr for non-sensitive photos
- tony101 6y ago
  Apple App Store Review Guidelines, Section 5.1.1: "(iv) Access: Apps must respect the user’s permission settings and not attempt to manipulate, trick, or force people to consent to unnecessary data access. For example, apps that include the ability to post photos to a social network must not also require microphone access before allowing the user to upload photos. Where possible, provide alternative solutions for users who don’t grant consent. For example, if a user declines to share Location, offer the ability to manually enter an address." https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#privacy https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#pri...
- floatingatoll 6y ago
  It's a clear violation of Apple's app store guidelines for them to deny access to the app if the app could reasonably function in the scenario where the user has only granted partial photos access. Unfortunately, as end users of a free app, we have no way to report this probable violation to Apple through customer support means. Hopefully the press around this will attract the attention of App Store leadership.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  > Detecting the auth level of access to photos is documented (PHAuthorizationStatus). This is not the problem. The problem is that they use that to do > Google photos is simply refusing to let you use their app all unless you grant them access to view all of your photos. This is not an appropriate use of the API.
- TheChaplain 6y ago
thitcanh 6y ago
Apple should really stop allowing abuse of their APIs, from custom photo pickers that nobody needs (remember, if your app uses the default photo picker, it doesn't need any permission at all) to any app that decides to include a general-purpose cookie-less web view instead of just opening links in Safari.
cmelbye 6y ago
Google Photos is not circumventing anything. It’s using a public API that was provided to developers in order to detect and react to limited permissions. If I paid for Google Photos and they won’t let me access my stored data without handing over even more data, then that feels outrageous. But if I’m using it for free, then it’s a reminder that nothing is actually free. That business model likely can’t work as a “view only” retrieval service. (If it even works at all)
- saagarjha 6y ago
  > Google Photos is not circumventing anything. Yes, it is. It is attempting to induce the user to granting more access than it needs to function, circumventing the user's preferences regarding the privacy of their photos. In doing so, they fall afoul of section 5.1.1 of the App Store Review Guidelines. > It’s using a public API that was provided to developers in order to detect and react to limited permissions. It is very clear that the interaction that Google Photos has with this API is not what it was designed for. I actually advocate for the removal of this API as it is very easy to use in ways that are not appropriate (and of limited use to legitimate apps). > That business model likely can’t work as a “view only” retrieval service. photos.google.com on desktop exists. Plus, this is an entirely separate argument; regardless of the business model there are rules for what iOS apps are allowed to do and the outrage stems from that.
  - cmelbye 6y ago
    Nothing is circumvented. I limited access to my photos, and Google told me that it needs full access for me to be able to “view, share, or back up” my photo library. There are no lies or circumventions here. The situation is fully transparent: They don’t want to build a “view only” experience. Apple cannot force them to build a “view only” experience. They can reject Google Photos, and Google can re-evaluate their investment. Viability of the business model is really not a separate argument. It’s intrinsic to the argument. Unfortunately, an App Store Guidelines decree does not mean that a business model becomes magically feasible. Let’s say Apple rejects Google Photos as you are suggesting. Google would likely relent and build a “view only” experience. Google can afford to lose money. A photo startup with limited funding might not have that option, and could go out of business. Is that a win?
MikeUt 6y ago
> needs full access to your photos This is a lie. The app could be made to function with access to only a subset of photos, so "wants full access" would be the accurate phrasing. Lying to users to gain more access is what malware does.
- dingaling 6y ago
  > The app could be made to function with access to only a subset How so? Does the platform permit choosing photos by a specific album or set of tags?
  - tony101 6y ago
    iOS indeed allows users to specify which photos an app has access to. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-use-the-limited-photos-picker-in-ios-14-for-added-privacy/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-use-the-limited-... In this case, Google Photos detects this and blocks the user from using the app unless they get full access to everything.
DoomHotel 6y ago
An app that installs without the permissions it really wants and then refuses to function AT ALL until granted those additional permissions has got to be some kind of violation. It's basically lying about the permissions it needs to function in order to make it into the appstore.
alkonaut 6y ago
Completely understandable for this case. I have no problem with it. I find the opposite problem more puzzling: when an app (e.g messenger) only has access to certain photos, why can’t the image selector still browse all of them? Isn’t the image selector an OS component that shows me all my photos without the app seeing them (that is, the app isn’t rendering them)? If this isn’t the case - why isn’t it? Is there no iOS system level image picker that runs isolated from the app? Or is there, but apps aren’t using it?
alkonaut 6y ago
I find this problem more puzzling: when an app (e.g messenger) only has access to certain photos on my device, why can’t the image selector when I want to attach an image still browse all of them? Isn’t the image selector an OS component that shows me all my photos without the app seeing them (that is, the app isn’t rendering them)? If this isn’t the case - why isn’t it? Is there no iOS system level image picker that runs isolated from the app? Or is there, but apps aren’t using it?
- acoard 6y ago
  >Isn’t the image selector an OS component that shows me all my photos without the app seeing them (that is, the app isn’t rendering them)? > If this isn’t the case - why isn’t it? Is there no iOS system level image picker that runs isolated from the app? Or is there, but apps aren’t using it? Yes, you're exactly right. There is a native OS switcher that does exactly what you say. But, there's nothing stopping an App developer from writing their own. Here, they'd just basically be fetching all photos it has access to (i.e., only certain images) and display those there. I haven't installed or used Fb messenger for years, but it sounds right up their alley to create their own image picker. You can shove a bunch of telemetry into your own image picker, but you can't into the native OS one.

47 points by cjv 6y ago

This is pretty egregious, but not surprising. Google wants that data and is willing to do whatever it takes to get it. I’ma little surprised though as other Google apps (hangouts) behaves and asks for access to additional photos every time I try and send a picture.

ggm 6y ago

I am going to put a different spin on this: If you use a service like google photos, wouldn't you want to uplift all your photos, albums and metadata into the service? Viewed from the "be maximally useful" perspective, it makes sense. I have 150,000 photos (maybe) -I don't want to approve each one. Even at the album granularity, I have thousands of albums. We all do. Yes, its a giant, egregious privacy breach. That is pretty much definitional for a cloud based Photo archive/album service.

crescentfresh 6y ago
I use google photos. I also certainly do NOT want to upload all my photos, albums and metadata into the service. Having said that I would still allow full access to all my photos on my device for the convenience of being able to scroll through my thousands of photos to select the 20-100 I want to upload.
floatingatoll 6y ago
Nope, that's not what I would want to use Google Photos for.
- ggm 6y ago
  then.. keep on granting per photo I guess? If they made that impossible thats a dark anti pattern
  - cassianoleal 6y ago
    I take it you didn't even click the OP? Because that's exactly what this is about, and nothing else.
zwily 6y ago
You can easily grant Google Photos access to all your photos. Why do you think others should not be allowed to specify a subset?
- ggm 6y ago
  per album would be nice I guess. see, this is why I love HN. it makes me think!
thitcanh 6y ago
It depends on what you use it for. I only use it to access a non-personal library, but Google Photos still shows all of my local photos in every account. That renders the app useless for me. Google Photo only wants to be a full replacement for your Photos app and doesn't allow any other usage. That's user-hostile. The worst part is that iOS 14 initially let me use Google Photos exactly the way I wanted, until Google (pretty quickly) added the block described by OP.
- ggm 6y ago
  yea I kinda see this now

megraf 6y ago

I don't agree with the title at all. Detecting the auth level of access to photos is documented (PHAuthorizationStatus). Google photos is simply refusing to let you use their app all unless you grant them access to view all of your photos. I'm all for privacy -far beyond the average person- but this seems like one of those cases of uninstall it and move on if you don't agree with the product decision. Fwiw: Not a fan of google. Currently on iCloud + Flickr for non-sensitive photos

tony101 6y ago
Apple App Store Review Guidelines, Section 5.1.1: "(iv) Access: Apps must respect the user’s permission settings and not attempt to manipulate, trick, or force people to consent to unnecessary data access. For example, apps that include the ability to post photos to a social network must not also require microphone access before allowing the user to upload photos. Where possible, provide alternative solutions for users who don’t grant consent. For example, if a user declines to share Location, offer the ability to manually enter an address." https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#privacy https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#pri...
floatingatoll 6y ago
It's a clear violation of Apple's app store guidelines for them to deny access to the app if the app could reasonably function in the scenario where the user has only granted partial photos access. Unfortunately, as end users of a free app, we have no way to report this probable violation to Apple through customer support means. Hopefully the press around this will attract the attention of App Store leadership.
saagarjha 6y ago
> Detecting the auth level of access to photos is documented (PHAuthorizationStatus). This is not the problem. The problem is that they use that to do > Google photos is simply refusing to let you use their app all unless you grant them access to view all of your photos. This is not an appropriate use of the API.
TheChaplain 6y ago

thitcanh 6y ago

Apple should really stop allowing abuse of their APIs, from custom photo pickers that nobody needs (remember, if your app uses the default photo picker, it doesn't need any permission at all) to any app that decides to include a general-purpose cookie-less web view instead of just opening links in Safari.

cmelbye 6y ago

Google Photos is not circumventing anything. It’s using a public API that was provided to developers in order to detect and react to limited permissions. If I paid for Google Photos and they won’t let me access my stored data without handing over even more data, then that feels outrageous. But if I’m using it for free, then it’s a reminder that nothing is actually free. That business model likely can’t work as a “view only” retrieval service. (If it even works at all)

saagarjha 6y ago
> Google Photos is not circumventing anything. Yes, it is. It is attempting to induce the user to granting more access than it needs to function, circumventing the user's preferences regarding the privacy of their photos. In doing so, they fall afoul of section 5.1.1 of the App Store Review Guidelines. > It’s using a public API that was provided to developers in order to detect and react to limited permissions. It is very clear that the interaction that Google Photos has with this API is not what it was designed for. I actually advocate for the removal of this API as it is very easy to use in ways that are not appropriate (and of limited use to legitimate apps). > That business model likely can’t work as a “view only” retrieval service. photos.google.com on desktop exists. Plus, this is an entirely separate argument; regardless of the business model there are rules for what iOS apps are allowed to do and the outrage stems from that.
- cmelbye 6y ago
  Nothing is circumvented. I limited access to my photos, and Google told me that it needs full access for me to be able to “view, share, or back up” my photo library. There are no lies or circumventions here. The situation is fully transparent: They don’t want to build a “view only” experience. Apple cannot force them to build a “view only” experience. They can reject Google Photos, and Google can re-evaluate their investment. Viability of the business model is really not a separate argument. It’s intrinsic to the argument. Unfortunately, an App Store Guidelines decree does not mean that a business model becomes magically feasible. Let’s say Apple rejects Google Photos as you are suggesting. Google would likely relent and build a “view only” experience. Google can afford to lose money. A photo startup with limited funding might not have that option, and could go out of business. Is that a win?

MikeUt 6y ago

> needs full access to your photos This is a lie. The app could be made to function with access to only a subset of photos, so "wants full access" would be the accurate phrasing. Lying to users to gain more access is what malware does.

dingaling 6y ago
> The app could be made to function with access to only a subset How so? Does the platform permit choosing photos by a specific album or set of tags?
- tony101 6y ago
  iOS indeed allows users to specify which photos an app has access to. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-use-the-limited-photos-picker-in-ios-14-for-added-privacy/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-use-the-limited-... In this case, Google Photos detects this and blocks the user from using the app unless they get full access to everything.

DoomHotel 6y ago

An app that installs without the permissions it really wants and then refuses to function AT ALL until granted those additional permissions has got to be some kind of violation. It's basically lying about the permissions it needs to function in order to make it into the appstore.

alkonaut 6y ago

Completely understandable for this case. I have no problem with it. I find the opposite problem more puzzling: when an app (e.g messenger) only has access to certain photos, why can’t the image selector still browse all of them? Isn’t the image selector an OS component that shows me all my photos without the app seeing them (that is, the app isn’t rendering them)? If this isn’t the case - why isn’t it? Is there no iOS system level image picker that runs isolated from the app? Or is there, but apps aren’t using it?

alkonaut 6y ago

I find this problem more puzzling: when an app (e.g messenger) only has access to certain photos on my device, why can’t the image selector when I want to attach an image still browse all of them? Isn’t the image selector an OS component that shows me all my photos without the app seeing them (that is, the app isn’t rendering them)? If this isn’t the case - why isn’t it? Is there no iOS system level image picker that runs isolated from the app? Or is there, but apps aren’t using it?

acoard 6y ago
>Isn’t the image selector an OS component that shows me all my photos without the app seeing them (that is, the app isn’t rendering them)? > If this isn’t the case - why isn’t it? Is there no iOS system level image picker that runs isolated from the app? Or is there, but apps aren’t using it? Yes, you're exactly right. There is a native OS switcher that does exactly what you say. But, there's nothing stopping an App developer from writing their own. Here, they'd just basically be fetching all photos it has access to (i.e., only certain images) and display those there. I haven't installed or used Fb messenger for years, but it sounds right up their alley to create their own image picker. You can shove a bunch of telemetry into your own image picker, but you can't into the native OS one.