3 ms·

You’re framing it the right way, and this is what we should work towards. But man, I long for the day when what you’re describing here is realistic. In Norway,

by marvin 6y ago

You’re framing it the right way, and this is what we should work towards. But man, I long for the day when what you’re describing here is realistic. In Norway, country of «holy crap, I’m an employer lobbyist and our salaries are so high we can’t compete in the export markets», you’ll only be around this level if you’re a freelance contractor billing 100% and doing all the sales work yourself. There are some CTO and probably a few lead roles paying this much, but for an IC you’ll top out around $120k. Prove me wrong if other Norwegians have a better view :)

eins1234 6y ago
If you're reading this and are an startup founder hiring software engineers, one way to help kickstart the trend in this direction is to hire fewer engineers than you otherwise would have, and become _much more selective_ with who you hire, but pay them salaries that are competitive with not your local market, but with the hottest markets in the world (SF, NYC, etc), and actively advertise that you're doing so. This will give your company a unique competitive advantage in capturing the best talent your market has to offer (and it likely has plenty of world-class talent to offer, but many of them end up getting brain drained away to those hotter markets today). It will also allow you to stay small for longer, dramatically reducing communication/coordination overhead and delaying the need to introduce management hierarchies, which is actually a substantial competitive advantage especially for early stage companies where agility and flexibility is the key to success. If all that's not enough, it will also do wonders for retention since it's basically a semi-permanent golden handcuff. Over the long term, other companies in your market will end up having to compete with _you_ for talent, which raises the boat for everybody and helps your local market flourish with engineering talent and reverse the outward brain drain trend. The unwillingness of employers in other markets to compete for talent outside their local maxima, optimizing for short-term self-interest over the long term health of the local talent market that they depend on for global competitiveness, is a true tragedy of the commons situation, and is a huge part of what makes Bay Area startups so dominant. It's also what forced my hand into moving to SF myself. It would have been extremely financially irresponsible of me to stay. By leaving 5 years ago, I tripled my salary compared to competing local offers, and one job change later I'm now making more than double of that (at a startup, not at one of the big tech corps).
- rapsey 6y ago
  This is completely unrealistic. Nowhere in the world outside SF/NYC is there so much VC money that can support paying developers those salaries. I would say over 90% of tech companies make their money from local markets. You can pay your developers as much as you make from your local market. As for hiring. You have no idea how well someone is going to work out. Some people are really good at interviews but turn out to be terrible employees and vice versa. This is why the hiring process in tech tends to be pretty convoluted and broken in general. No one can figure this out. The laws regarding hiring are also much less liberal outside of CA. Hiring and firing is severely restricted in many places. Very few companies are in the position of being "unwilling" to pay developers more. Some with plenty of cash are even simply limited by the tax laws how much they can pay. The cost of paying someone too much over local market rate incurs obscene tax costs.
  - marvin 6y ago
    The "able to pay" part will resolve itself if you manage to start a sufficiently successful startup. Eventually through high enough profits, since the startups that turn into global leaders in their field are more profitable per employee than anything a local non-tech company can compete with. Getting to that point is a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, though. And firing policies is a political barrier that's hard to avoid. I suppose you could keep everyone on as contractors, paying them standard rates but going to them directly, not through an agency. That would land the salaries in the region suggested, and you'd still have the ability to fire without cause.
    - rapsey 6y ago
      Lack of VC money makes starting a sufficiently successful startup a bit difficult. There is a reason there is only one silicon valley.
      - ricardobayes 6y ago
        There are more silicon valleys, like Tel-Aviv or Shenzen, but arguably the Bay Area is the only one merit-based. Good luck getting funded at the other two as a foreigner.
codebolt 6y ago
Sadly, you're absolutely spot on.

by marvin 6y ago

eins1234 6y ago

If you're reading this and are an startup founder hiring software engineers, one way to help kickstart the trend in this direction is to hire fewer engineers than you otherwise would have, and become _much more selective_ with who you hire, but pay them salaries that are competitive with not your local market, but with the hottest markets in the world (SF, NYC, etc), and actively advertise that you're doing so. This will give your company a unique competitive advantage in capturing the best talent your market has to offer (and it likely has plenty of world-class talent to offer, but many of them end up getting brain drained away to those hotter markets today). It will also allow you to stay small for longer, dramatically reducing communication/coordination overhead and delaying the need to introduce management hierarchies, which is actually a substantial competitive advantage especially for early stage companies where agility and flexibility is the key to success. If all that's not enough, it will also do wonders for retention since it's basically a semi-permanent golden handcuff. Over the long term, other companies in your market will end up having to compete with _you_ for talent, which raises the boat for everybody and helps your local market flourish with engineering talent and reverse the outward brain drain trend. The unwillingness of employers in other markets to compete for talent outside their local maxima, optimizing for short-term self-interest over the long term health of the local talent market that they depend on for global competitiveness, is a true tragedy of the commons situation, and is a huge part of what makes Bay Area startups so dominant. It's also what forced my hand into moving to SF myself. It would have been extremely financially irresponsible of me to stay. By leaving 5 years ago, I tripled my salary compared to competing local offers, and one job change later I'm now making more than double of that (at a startup, not at one of the big tech corps).

rapsey 6y ago
This is completely unrealistic. Nowhere in the world outside SF/NYC is there so much VC money that can support paying developers those salaries. I would say over 90% of tech companies make their money from local markets. You can pay your developers as much as you make from your local market. As for hiring. You have no idea how well someone is going to work out. Some people are really good at interviews but turn out to be terrible employees and vice versa. This is why the hiring process in tech tends to be pretty convoluted and broken in general. No one can figure this out. The laws regarding hiring are also much less liberal outside of CA. Hiring and firing is severely restricted in many places. Very few companies are in the position of being "unwilling" to pay developers more. Some with plenty of cash are even simply limited by the tax laws how much they can pay. The cost of paying someone too much over local market rate incurs obscene tax costs.
- marvin 6y ago
  The "able to pay" part will resolve itself if you manage to start a sufficiently successful startup. Eventually through high enough profits, since the startups that turn into global leaders in their field are more profitable per employee than anything a local non-tech company can compete with. Getting to that point is a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, though. And firing policies is a political barrier that's hard to avoid. I suppose you could keep everyone on as contractors, paying them standard rates but going to them directly, not through an agency. That would land the salaries in the region suggested, and you'd still have the ability to fire without cause.
  - rapsey 6y ago
    Lack of VC money makes starting a sufficiently successful startup a bit difficult. There is a reason there is only one silicon valley.
    - ricardobayes 6y ago
      There are more silicon valleys, like Tel-Aviv or Shenzen, but arguably the Bay Area is the only one merit-based. Good luck getting funded at the other two as a foreigner.

codebolt 6y ago

Sadly, you're absolutely spot on.