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Yes, some people regard science with dogmatic devotion, but there's very obviously a qualitative difference between the "sermon" of a celebrity scientist and th

Yes, some people regard science with dogmatic devotion, but there's very obviously a qualitative difference between the "sermon" of a celebrity scientist and that of a religious leader.

haswell 6y ago
This was my first reaction to this as well. I grew up in a very religious family. The "Science is another religion" take is as problematic as "The republicans/democrats are the all the same". The #1 thing that strikes me is that any characteristics shared by religion and science only exist because of human behavior, while the fundamentals could not be more different.
- beaconstudios 6y ago
  Science isn't a religion. Scientism, basically is - they're not the same thing. I used that word specifically. Scientism is the fetishisation of science.
  - haswell 6y ago
    While I appreciate the distinction, the point still stands: fetishization is something that humans do, and science, while imperfect, stands on a foundation that is entirely unlike that of religion. The definition and history of scientism is also more complex than "basically a religion". Meanwhile, a large and growing group of people truly believe that science is religion in a very literal sense, and they're using that belief to reject the reality of climate change, peddle anti-vaccine viewpoints, etc, and that has nothing to do with scientism.
wait_a_minute 6y ago
It's hard to comment on the qualitative difference of a speech from a celebrity scientist vs a religious leader. Do I want to know the latest and greatest on why Interstellar's depiction of black holes was interesting? I'll listen to Neil Degrasse Tyson. Do I want to know the latest and greatest on how philosophers or theologians interpret reality and meaning? Then I'll listen to any number of my favorites on these subjects. There are world-class experts in both areas and they address different needs.
- potatoman22 6y ago
  In theory they should address different needs, however many celebrity scientists have proclaimed that "philosophy is useless", as if the scientific method is the only path to knowledge and anything else is hearsay. It's silly that they think they have any authority on this, really. https://qz.com/627989/why-are-so-many-smart-people-such-idiots-about-philosophy/ https://qz.com/627989/why-are-so-many-smart-people-such-idio...
slibhb 6y ago
Yeah, the religious leader does a lot less harm. If you're going to worship something at an altar, it's better if that thing isn't real.
- haswell 6y ago
  > Yeah, the religious leader does a lot less harm This is not a good take. It is hard to estimate the magnitude of the harm done by even a single religious leader who preaches a message of hate and fear. A leader who deeply instils into his congregation a belief system that has undertones of racism, misogyny, homophobia, and authoritarianism. I don't personally believe in the god my parents did, and while you're right that it doesn't really matter if who they believe in is real, it does matter that they choose to follow the teachings of the church in the name of that god.
  - slibhb 6y ago
    The atrocities of the 20th century, which make everything earlier seem like child's play, are a result of secularization. Modern-style racism was invented by Enlightenment thinkers. Eugenics is the result of genetics and Darwin. Dialectical materialism inspired many mass murderers. Religion reminds people of their fallibility. When you forget your own limitations, you deify yourself, and nothing good comes of that.
    - haswell 6y ago
      > The atrocities of the 20th century, which make everything earlier seem like child's play, are a result of secularization. Modern-style racism was invented by Enlightenment thinkers. Eugenics is the result of genetics and Darwin. Dialectical materialism inspired many mass murderers. Mind pointing to some citations? Genuinely curious. > Religion reminds people of their fallibility. I don't need religion to remind me of my fallibility. I'm reminded of that on a daily basis when I screw simple things up. > When you forget your own limitations, you deify yourself... First, it's a huge stretch to claim that forgetting limitations leads to deification. But secondly, when I forget my own limitations, I'm quickly reminded again by screwing up again. Religion is not necessary to stay grounded. And not every religion is focused on the fallibility of humans. Do some people find that religion helps them stay grounded? Sure. If that works for you, great. You're describing something that some religions may do.

Yes, some people regard science with dogmatic devotion, but there's very obviously a qualitative difference between the "sermon" of a celebrity scientist and that of a religious leader.

haswell 6y ago

This was my first reaction to this as well. I grew up in a very religious family. The "Science is another religion" take is as problematic as "The republicans/democrats are the all the same". The #1 thing that strikes me is that any characteristics shared by religion and science only exist because of human behavior, while the fundamentals could not be more different.

beaconstudios 6y ago
Science isn't a religion. Scientism, basically is - they're not the same thing. I used that word specifically. Scientism is the fetishisation of science.
- haswell 6y ago
  While I appreciate the distinction, the point still stands: fetishization is something that humans do, and science, while imperfect, stands on a foundation that is entirely unlike that of religion. The definition and history of scientism is also more complex than "basically a religion". Meanwhile, a large and growing group of people truly believe that science is religion in a very literal sense, and they're using that belief to reject the reality of climate change, peddle anti-vaccine viewpoints, etc, and that has nothing to do with scientism.

wait_a_minute 6y ago

It's hard to comment on the qualitative difference of a speech from a celebrity scientist vs a religious leader. Do I want to know the latest and greatest on why Interstellar's depiction of black holes was interesting? I'll listen to Neil Degrasse Tyson. Do I want to know the latest and greatest on how philosophers or theologians interpret reality and meaning? Then I'll listen to any number of my favorites on these subjects. There are world-class experts in both areas and they address different needs.

potatoman22 6y ago
In theory they should address different needs, however many celebrity scientists have proclaimed that "philosophy is useless", as if the scientific method is the only path to knowledge and anything else is hearsay. It's silly that they think they have any authority on this, really. https://qz.com/627989/why-are-so-many-smart-people-such-idiots-about-philosophy/ https://qz.com/627989/why-are-so-many-smart-people-such-idio...

slibhb 6y ago

Yeah, the religious leader does a lot less harm. If you're going to worship something at an altar, it's better if that thing isn't real.

haswell 6y ago
> Yeah, the religious leader does a lot less harm This is not a good take. It is hard to estimate the magnitude of the harm done by even a single religious leader who preaches a message of hate and fear. A leader who deeply instils into his congregation a belief system that has undertones of racism, misogyny, homophobia, and authoritarianism. I don't personally believe in the god my parents did, and while you're right that it doesn't really matter if who they believe in is real, it does matter that they choose to follow the teachings of the church in the name of that god.
- slibhb 6y ago
  The atrocities of the 20th century, which make everything earlier seem like child's play, are a result of secularization. Modern-style racism was invented by Enlightenment thinkers. Eugenics is the result of genetics and Darwin. Dialectical materialism inspired many mass murderers. Religion reminds people of their fallibility. When you forget your own limitations, you deify yourself, and nothing good comes of that.
  - haswell 6y ago
    > The atrocities of the 20th century, which make everything earlier seem like child's play, are a result of secularization. Modern-style racism was invented by Enlightenment thinkers. Eugenics is the result of genetics and Darwin. Dialectical materialism inspired many mass murderers. Mind pointing to some citations? Genuinely curious. > Religion reminds people of their fallibility. I don't need religion to remind me of my fallibility. I'm reminded of that on a daily basis when I screw simple things up. > When you forget your own limitations, you deify yourself... First, it's a huge stretch to claim that forgetting limitations leads to deification. But secondly, when I forget my own limitations, I'm quickly reminded again by screwing up again. Religion is not necessary to stay grounded. And not every religion is focused on the fallibility of humans. Do some people find that religion helps them stay grounded? Sure. If that works for you, great. You're describing something that some religions may do.