5 ms·

Yes, but those are different people that might be killed, which makes it an ethical dilemma. Depending on the type of adverse reaction, it might be safer for y

by xgb84j 6y ago

Yes, but those are different people that might be killed, which makes it an ethical dilemma. Depending on the type of adverse reaction, it might be safer for young people to not get vaccinated at all or with a different vaccine. (For example if the adverse reaction affects mostly young people, while COVID affects mostly older people.)

WanderPanda 6y ago
Thats why everyone should be free to chose to get vaccinated. It is not fair to transfer the disease risk from old/risk groups to (longterm) side-effect risks for young/healthy people
- lxgr 6y ago
  > Thats why everyone should be free to chose to get vaccinated. Isn't that the case? At least in my country, there is no obligation to take the vaccine, and even incentives (e.g. being able to attend public events sooner) are seen very critically.
  - ktybdr 6y ago
    There are definitely people with the view that they should be mandatory and I've personally started to encounter social pressure to get vaccinated, which I don't want to do, because I lead a low-contact hermit's life and the odds of dying from COVID which I probably won't catch if I maintain my lifestyle a few more months appears to be lower than the chance I'll die from a vaccine that I definitely get For my age cohort the chance of death from either is infinitesimal but because of Bayes it might make sense to continue to avoid both, but if I try to explain that to my peers they might think I'm a Trump supporter, and as everyone knows, Trump supporters should be shunned from polite society (especially since the "insurrection"), so I see this as a choice between social excommunication and a questionable injection I don't want Fun times
    - Retric 6y ago
      Assuming your odds of catching COVID is 1 in 1,000 that’s still a higher risk for any adult age group than the vaccines. I doubt your risk of catching covid is actually that low. More importantly it’s not just about avoiding death, a bad case of COVID is terrible even if you survive. On top of this you reduce the risk of spreading it to someone else.
    - wbronitsky 6y ago
      I’m curious as to why you find the injection questionable? From my understanding, all of the vaccines approved in the US followed the same path every other vaccine follows. The difference was that Covid is everywhere, so stage 3 went really quickly, where it could normally take many months or years for the requisite amount of people to catch the disease in question. To me, these vaccines have been as rigorously tested as they could be, and none of this was really ever about people in your health category anyways, so that seems irrelevant in the “utility of vaccination” argument. I could be incorrect though, so I’m interested in your unease and rejection of what I find to be sound science.
      - curmudgeon22 6y ago
        For what it’s worth, the vaccines have been released under Emergency Use Authorization, not the normal approval process. The EUA still requires safety data etc.. but isn’t as rigorous as the full process. Here’s a decent write up: https://theconversation.com/what-are-emergency-use-authorizations-and-do-they-guarantee-that-a-vaccine-or-drug-is-safe-151178 https://theconversation.com/what-are-emergency-use-authoriza...
      - waterheater 6y ago
        Not that guy, but I'll give you one viewpoint. >To me, these vaccines have been as rigorously tested as they could be Not for me. The fact is, the vaccines have been pushed through faster than any vaccine before. Anything foreign entering the body should be tested and based on solid evidence. Doesn't matter if it's an artificial heart, stent, prosthetic, or a biological agent like a vaccine. If decades of medical research shows determining a vaccine's safety takes years because of ethical protocols, then it takes years. The present vaccination campaigns are performing more comprehensive stage 3 trials on the general population because the risks are deemed acceptable. As other people have said in this thread, a person under the age of 18 is 50% more likely to die of SARS-CoV-2 vaccine complications than from SARS-CoV-2. The risk isn't worth it at this time. Additionally, the technologies being used for the vaccines is still deemed experimental, specifically the mRNA ones. No mRNA vaccines have been deployed before, but now it's being deployed on the general population without public knowledge of any potential risks of this unproven technology ("unproven" meaning lacking a prior real-world deployment effort; a rocket engine is only proven when it flies, not in simulation). One risk with the mRNA vaccines is that they need to be kept extremely cold to preserve the mRNA sequences [1]. If the dose warms, good mRNA sequences break down into junk mRNA, which for all intents and purposes are random nucleotide chains. That ties into an above point: no rational person wants random mRNA pieces put into their body. Again, while all risk is relative, for my age group, the risk is not enough. If you're well-versed in the science, I recommend reading this complaint [2] filed with the EU regarding Pfizer trial safety. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact-check-mrna-vaccine-storage-temp-idUSKBN28E28D https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact-check-mrna-vaccine-s... [2] https://2020news.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Wodarg_Yeadon_EMA_Petition_Pfizer_Trial_FINAL_01DEC2020_EN_unsigned_with_Exhibits.pdf https://2020news.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Wodarg_Yeadon...
  - h3cate 6y ago
    People in the UK are pushing for a vaccine passport that people will need to be allowed into venues or travel. Here's a story from today about BA introducing a passport to travel - BBC News - Covid-19: British Airways plans app-based travel pass https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56392570 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56392570
- dehrmann 6y ago
  It's a little cold, but the rollout targeting old people first helps a lot with de-risking. It reminds me of the group of people over 60 who worked on containing the Fukushima reactor. That was more altruistic and would only happen in some cultures, but it's a similar net outcome.
fasteddie31003 6y ago
No one is forcing you to get the vax. I would have personally taken the Moderna vax months before the FDA approved it because I was following the research closely.
- mikem170 6y ago
  I'm curious, were you able to find specific numbers for any of the studies done for regulatory approval? The raw data showing how many people got the drug, how many had side effects, and how this compares to normal rates? I haven't had any luck with that. I assume these numbers are what the FDA is looking at. Possible side effects are documented in the packaging for a drug, but that doesn't qualify the risk without numbers. I'd prefer to know this for any drug I'd consider using. I find it strange that this data is so hard to find. I ask because it sounds like you went pretty deep in the vaccine you mentioned, maybe you bumped into this.
  - refurb 6y ago
    The raw data is proprietary and the analyzed data summary is available on the FDA website. I have no idea what OP means when he says “following it closely” as that’s impossible beyond press releases.
- h3cate 6y ago
  Ha if only this were true. UK companies are requiring employees have the vaccine and ba is requiring the vaccine to travel.

by xgb84j 6y ago

WanderPanda 6y ago

Thats why everyone should be free to chose to get vaccinated. It is not fair to transfer the disease risk from old/risk groups to (longterm) side-effect risks for young/healthy people

lxgr 6y ago
> Thats why everyone should be free to chose to get vaccinated. Isn't that the case? At least in my country, there is no obligation to take the vaccine, and even incentives (e.g. being able to attend public events sooner) are seen very critically.
- ktybdr 6y ago
  There are definitely people with the view that they should be mandatory and I've personally started to encounter social pressure to get vaccinated, which I don't want to do, because I lead a low-contact hermit's life and the odds of dying from COVID which I probably won't catch if I maintain my lifestyle a few more months appears to be lower than the chance I'll die from a vaccine that I definitely get For my age cohort the chance of death from either is infinitesimal but because of Bayes it might make sense to continue to avoid both, but if I try to explain that to my peers they might think I'm a Trump supporter, and as everyone knows, Trump supporters should be shunned from polite society (especially since the "insurrection"), so I see this as a choice between social excommunication and a questionable injection I don't want Fun times
  - Retric 6y ago
    Assuming your odds of catching COVID is 1 in 1,000 that’s still a higher risk for any adult age group than the vaccines. I doubt your risk of catching covid is actually that low. More importantly it’s not just about avoiding death, a bad case of COVID is terrible even if you survive. On top of this you reduce the risk of spreading it to someone else.
  - wbronitsky 6y ago
    I’m curious as to why you find the injection questionable? From my understanding, all of the vaccines approved in the US followed the same path every other vaccine follows. The difference was that Covid is everywhere, so stage 3 went really quickly, where it could normally take many months or years for the requisite amount of people to catch the disease in question. To me, these vaccines have been as rigorously tested as they could be, and none of this was really ever about people in your health category anyways, so that seems irrelevant in the “utility of vaccination” argument. I could be incorrect though, so I’m interested in your unease and rejection of what I find to be sound science.
    - curmudgeon22 6y ago
      For what it’s worth, the vaccines have been released under Emergency Use Authorization, not the normal approval process. The EUA still requires safety data etc.. but isn’t as rigorous as the full process. Here’s a decent write up: https://theconversation.com/what-are-emergency-use-authorizations-and-do-they-guarantee-that-a-vaccine-or-drug-is-safe-151178 https://theconversation.com/what-are-emergency-use-authoriza...
    - waterheater 6y ago
      Not that guy, but I'll give you one viewpoint. >To me, these vaccines have been as rigorously tested as they could be Not for me. The fact is, the vaccines have been pushed through faster than any vaccine before. Anything foreign entering the body should be tested and based on solid evidence. Doesn't matter if it's an artificial heart, stent, prosthetic, or a biological agent like a vaccine. If decades of medical research shows determining a vaccine's safety takes years because of ethical protocols, then it takes years. The present vaccination campaigns are performing more comprehensive stage 3 trials on the general population because the risks are deemed acceptable. As other people have said in this thread, a person under the age of 18 is 50% more likely to die of SARS-CoV-2 vaccine complications than from SARS-CoV-2. The risk isn't worth it at this time. Additionally, the technologies being used for the vaccines is still deemed experimental, specifically the mRNA ones. No mRNA vaccines have been deployed before, but now it's being deployed on the general population without public knowledge of any potential risks of this unproven technology ("unproven" meaning lacking a prior real-world deployment effort; a rocket engine is only proven when it flies, not in simulation). One risk with the mRNA vaccines is that they need to be kept extremely cold to preserve the mRNA sequences [1]. If the dose warms, good mRNA sequences break down into junk mRNA, which for all intents and purposes are random nucleotide chains. That ties into an above point: no rational person wants random mRNA pieces put into their body. Again, while all risk is relative, for my age group, the risk is not enough. If you're well-versed in the science, I recommend reading this complaint [2] filed with the EU regarding Pfizer trial safety. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact-check-mrna-vaccine-storage-temp-idUSKBN28E28D https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact-check-mrna-vaccine-s... [2] https://2020news.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Wodarg_Yeadon_EMA_Petition_Pfizer_Trial_FINAL_01DEC2020_EN_unsigned_with_Exhibits.pdf https://2020news.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Wodarg_Yeadon...
- h3cate 6y ago
  People in the UK are pushing for a vaccine passport that people will need to be allowed into venues or travel. Here's a story from today about BA introducing a passport to travel - BBC News - Covid-19: British Airways plans app-based travel pass https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56392570 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56392570
dehrmann 6y ago
It's a little cold, but the rollout targeting old people first helps a lot with de-risking. It reminds me of the group of people over 60 who worked on containing the Fukushima reactor. That was more altruistic and would only happen in some cultures, but it's a similar net outcome.

fasteddie31003 6y ago

No one is forcing you to get the vax. I would have personally taken the Moderna vax months before the FDA approved it because I was following the research closely.

mikem170 6y ago
I'm curious, were you able to find specific numbers for any of the studies done for regulatory approval? The raw data showing how many people got the drug, how many had side effects, and how this compares to normal rates? I haven't had any luck with that. I assume these numbers are what the FDA is looking at. Possible side effects are documented in the packaging for a drug, but that doesn't qualify the risk without numbers. I'd prefer to know this for any drug I'd consider using. I find it strange that this data is so hard to find. I ask because it sounds like you went pretty deep in the vaccine you mentioned, maybe you bumped into this.
- refurb 6y ago
  The raw data is proprietary and the analyzed data summary is available on the FDA website. I have no idea what OP means when he says “following it closely” as that’s impossible beyond press releases.
h3cate 6y ago
Ha if only this were true. UK companies are requiring employees have the vaccine and ba is requiring the vaccine to travel.