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I support full time DST but ... Isn’t it weird to think That the Vast majority Of people are so powerless over their own schedules that they need nationwide le

I support full time DST but ... Isn’t it weird to think That the Vast majority Of people are so powerless over their own schedules that they need nationwide legislation to do what they want and enjoy their evenings? I don’t have a point. It’s just kind of a funny thing to think about.

faitswulff 6y ago
Society has dictated the majority of people’s lives for most of human history. Being able to control one’s schedule is the exception. In fact, even having eight hours of leisure wasn’t always a given in the US [0][1]. [0]: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6645/ http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6645/ [1]: https://www.paunions.com/may-day-eight-hours-for-work-eight-hours-for-rest-eight-hours-for-what-we-will/ https://www.paunions.com/may-day-eight-hours-for-work-eight-...
- ianai 6y ago
  That doesn’t make it right nor correct. Just “normative.” Hunter gatherers didn’t/don’t have these problems. (Though they definitely have plenty of other problems.)
  - faitswulff 6y ago
    Pretty much as soon as your civilization becomes agricultural you encounter these kinds of societal benefits to synchronizing schedules - perhaps at the cost of individual liberties. I’m just pointing out that the GP might be coming at it from a point of view that is a historical exception; I’m not making a value statement about it.
cptskippy 6y ago
It's a hack because it's easier to change the fundamental concept of time than it is to change all of our published schedules. Imagine if businesses, trains, fairies, parks, etc all had summer and winter hours. A simple glitch in the Matrix twice a year is preferable.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  Many parks open and close at sunrise and sunset, effectively ensuring that they have different summer and winter hours.
  - asoneth 6y ago
    Good point. It's too bad that this would be hard to use for anything besides sunrise and sunset, e.g. "breakfast served daily from sunrise+1h to sunrise+6h".
- valarauko 6y ago
  > It's a hack because it's easier to change the fundamental concept of time than it is to change all of our published schedules. Imagine if businesses, trains, fairies, parks, etc all had summer and winter hours. Isn't this already a thing in places that don't use DST? The concept of a winter/summer schedule isn't too hard for most people to grok.
heavyset_go 6y ago
> Isn’t it weird to think That the Vast majority Of people are so powerless over their own schedules that they need nationwide legislation to do what they want and enjoy their evenings? Workplace democracy is not one of the values our country holds, unfortunately.
dahart 6y ago
It is weird and a little funny to think about, and it's kind of true that many people are powerless in a way because of their job. But I'm not sure it's fair to paint this as people being completely powerless nor as some kind of issue where people believe in legislation over personal freedoms. I choose to keep my job, and I want my job to be happening at the same time that other people are working. Our industrialized economies live on schedules. Business and work and school and even just social gatherings of any kind all need to agree on what time things will start and stop. Communication and transportation all depend on wide agreement about when people expect to be working. There's legislation because society and the economy depends on when the workday happens, and because it's important that many businesses are on the same schedule, not because legislators care what you do with your evenings.
quadrifoliate 6y ago
On those lines – if we as a society are going to accept this twice-yearly glitch in the matrix, it should be done in a humane way so as to enable humans to cope with a sudden change to their schedules. I'm thinking things like: - Highway warning signs for 1 week before and after the sudden time change - Speed limits are lowered on expressways for 2 weeks after the time change - Businesses are not allowed to penalize workers for any lateness-related reason for up to 1 hour for 2 weeks after the time change - Maybe even an extra Monday's holiday for Spring Forward! Holidays are notoriously scarce around this time of the year anyway. ...and so forth. That's what I think is missing. I think most people can agree that it's a pretty fundamental change to circadian rhythm, essentially forcing everyone to go through a minor version of jet lag. What seems to be missing is the acknowledgement that this can be a big deal for some folks, and helping them adapt as a society.

faitswulff 6y ago

Society has dictated the majority of people’s lives for most of human history. Being able to control one’s schedule is the exception. In fact, even having eight hours of leisure wasn’t always a given in the US [0][1]. [0]: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6645/ http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6645/ [1]: https://www.paunions.com/may-day-eight-hours-for-work-eight-hours-for-rest-eight-hours-for-what-we-will/ https://www.paunions.com/may-day-eight-hours-for-work-eight-...

ianai 6y ago
That doesn’t make it right nor correct. Just “normative.” Hunter gatherers didn’t/don’t have these problems. (Though they definitely have plenty of other problems.)
- faitswulff 6y ago
  Pretty much as soon as your civilization becomes agricultural you encounter these kinds of societal benefits to synchronizing schedules - perhaps at the cost of individual liberties. I’m just pointing out that the GP might be coming at it from a point of view that is a historical exception; I’m not making a value statement about it.

cptskippy 6y ago

It's a hack because it's easier to change the fundamental concept of time than it is to change all of our published schedules. Imagine if businesses, trains, fairies, parks, etc all had summer and winter hours. A simple glitch in the Matrix twice a year is preferable.

heavyset_go 6y ago
Many parks open and close at sunrise and sunset, effectively ensuring that they have different summer and winter hours.
- asoneth 6y ago
  Good point. It's too bad that this would be hard to use for anything besides sunrise and sunset, e.g. "breakfast served daily from sunrise+1h to sunrise+6h".
valarauko 6y ago
> It's a hack because it's easier to change the fundamental concept of time than it is to change all of our published schedules. Imagine if businesses, trains, fairies, parks, etc all had summer and winter hours. Isn't this already a thing in places that don't use DST? The concept of a winter/summer schedule isn't too hard for most people to grok.

heavyset_go 6y ago

> Isn’t it weird to think That the Vast majority Of people are so powerless over their own schedules that they need nationwide legislation to do what they want and enjoy their evenings? Workplace democracy is not one of the values our country holds, unfortunately.

dahart 6y ago

It is weird and a little funny to think about, and it's kind of true that many people are powerless in a way because of their job. But I'm not sure it's fair to paint this as people being completely powerless nor as some kind of issue where people believe in legislation over personal freedoms. I choose to keep my job, and I want my job to be happening at the same time that other people are working. Our industrialized economies live on schedules. Business and work and school and even just social gatherings of any kind all need to agree on what time things will start and stop. Communication and transportation all depend on wide agreement about when people expect to be working. There's legislation because society and the economy depends on when the workday happens, and because it's important that many businesses are on the same schedule, not because legislators care what you do with your evenings.

quadrifoliate 6y ago

On those lines – if we as a society are going to accept this twice-yearly glitch in the matrix, it should be done in a humane way so as to enable humans to cope with a sudden change to their schedules. I'm thinking things like: - Highway warning signs for 1 week before and after the sudden time change - Speed limits are lowered on expressways for 2 weeks after the time change - Businesses are not allowed to penalize workers for any lateness-related reason for up to 1 hour for 2 weeks after the time change - Maybe even an extra Monday's holiday for Spring Forward! Holidays are notoriously scarce around this time of the year anyway. ...and so forth. That's what I think is missing. I think most people can agree that it's a pretty fundamental change to circadian rhythm, essentially forcing everyone to go through a minor version of jet lag. What seems to be missing is the acknowledgement that this can be a big deal for some folks, and helping them adapt as a society.