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On one hand I can understand and relate why a government would implement such a ban. On the other I am really curious in which legal frame you can justify “doin

On one hand I can understand and relate why a government would implement such a ban. On the other I am really curious in which legal frame you can justify “doing math calculations on your computer is illegal” without destroying personal freedom and liberty. Bitcoin is a real curveball

exclipy 6y ago
Bitcoin is just doing calculations on your computer, the same way crystal meth is just doing chemistry in your RV
- ACAVJW4H 6y ago
  This is straw manning my point. Calculating hash functions is literally doing calculations on my computer and no it’s not cooking drugs and has nothing to do with drugs.
  - DetroitThrow 6y ago
    How is it a straw man? It seems an apt analogy given your critique of the ban: it does not matter the implementation details, if society deems some behavior against the public good, then there will likely be an intervention if the enforcement of such seems feasible. It does not matter whether it's just some math or signals on a computer - torrenting CP is just "doing some math" on your computer, but it is similarly banned.
    - lupire 6y ago
      The point is, what exactly is the behavior that is harmful? Is it the pollution? Tax circumvention?
      - DetroitThrow 6y ago
        Both perhaps, I won't try to pretend I know what the Indian legislature is thinking, but the collective harm it might be doing was not the question the root comment had asked - it framed that computation in-itself needed a moral justification to be deemed illegal, which is much more broad than the narrow task of mining bitcoin and would include math operations on computers that are currently illegal, such as distributing child pornography. The commentator then called a critique of that lens a "strawman", despite CP and many other computations (see other comments in the thread) already being illegal.
    - ACAVJW4H 6y ago
      You could calculate hash functions with pen and paper as well. It may be somewhat slow but once you get the hang of it you could calculate a couple hashes a week. Should we ban pen and paper problem solving? Who is to decide which numbers and operators are public good? Is math in its entirety blasphemous? Although comparing pen and paper calculations with the greedy wasteful world of bitcoin mining is ridiculous, I think it’s less ridiculous then associating anything you don’t agree with drugs or any other boogieman argument. Law and ethics are not as clear cut as you are trying to portray. Nature and ecology are precious but so are Personal freedoms. They were not given to society, they were earned with blood and tears and they’re equally precious.
      - DetroitThrow 6y ago
        You could transmit and decompress child pornography in hand inked, hand computed base 64 as well, and even though I don't think there's been such a case, I'm sure the courts already know what types of distribution and computation of information is illegal. Unless this is some suggestion that banning CP is a slippery slope as well, there's clear precedent for banning certain things that computers can do which doesn't cause the entirety of mathematics to become heretical.
      - bigbillheck 6y ago
        Pen&paper calculations' energy budget is not measured by the gigawatt.
lxgr 6y ago
> doing math calculations on your computer Isn't that true for all computing?
dgellow 6y ago
Not saying that’s good, but that’s already done since a while with encryption key (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number) and encryption systems (the US restricts export of cryptography). A legal system doesn’t care that much about all the technical details when they can deal with the abstraction directly.
vaylian 6y ago
Welcome to the real world, where numbers can be illegal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number (And no, I don't like this)
jagger27 6y ago
Bitcoin mining uses purpose built ASICs now. Maybe start there?
- qertoip 6y ago
  This will get you nowhere. Already, Monero successfully employs general CPU-s for its PoW. Bitcoin could switch to another PoW algorithm if critically necessary. Decentralized cryptocurrencies are beautiful hydras.
beforeolives 6y ago
Everything you do digitally can be reduced down to "doing calculations" and some of those things are already illegal (and with good reason). There might be some good arguments in Bitcoin's defence but this isn't one of them.

exclipy 6y ago

Bitcoin is just doing calculations on your computer, the same way crystal meth is just doing chemistry in your RV

ACAVJW4H 6y ago
This is straw manning my point. Calculating hash functions is literally doing calculations on my computer and no it’s not cooking drugs and has nothing to do with drugs.
- DetroitThrow 6y ago
  How is it a straw man? It seems an apt analogy given your critique of the ban: it does not matter the implementation details, if society deems some behavior against the public good, then there will likely be an intervention if the enforcement of such seems feasible. It does not matter whether it's just some math or signals on a computer - torrenting CP is just "doing some math" on your computer, but it is similarly banned.
  - lupire 6y ago
    The point is, what exactly is the behavior that is harmful? Is it the pollution? Tax circumvention?
    - DetroitThrow 6y ago
      Both perhaps, I won't try to pretend I know what the Indian legislature is thinking, but the collective harm it might be doing was not the question the root comment had asked - it framed that computation in-itself needed a moral justification to be deemed illegal, which is much more broad than the narrow task of mining bitcoin and would include math operations on computers that are currently illegal, such as distributing child pornography. The commentator then called a critique of that lens a "strawman", despite CP and many other computations (see other comments in the thread) already being illegal.
  - ACAVJW4H 6y ago
    You could calculate hash functions with pen and paper as well. It may be somewhat slow but once you get the hang of it you could calculate a couple hashes a week. Should we ban pen and paper problem solving? Who is to decide which numbers and operators are public good? Is math in its entirety blasphemous? Although comparing pen and paper calculations with the greedy wasteful world of bitcoin mining is ridiculous, I think it’s less ridiculous then associating anything you don’t agree with drugs or any other boogieman argument. Law and ethics are not as clear cut as you are trying to portray. Nature and ecology are precious but so are Personal freedoms. They were not given to society, they were earned with blood and tears and they’re equally precious.
    - DetroitThrow 6y ago
      You could transmit and decompress child pornography in hand inked, hand computed base 64 as well, and even though I don't think there's been such a case, I'm sure the courts already know what types of distribution and computation of information is illegal. Unless this is some suggestion that banning CP is a slippery slope as well, there's clear precedent for banning certain things that computers can do which doesn't cause the entirety of mathematics to become heretical.
    - bigbillheck 6y ago
      Pen&paper calculations' energy budget is not measured by the gigawatt.

lxgr 6y ago

> doing math calculations on your computer Isn't that true for all computing?

dgellow 6y ago

Not saying that’s good, but that’s already done since a while with encryption key (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number) and encryption systems (the US restricts export of cryptography). A legal system doesn’t care that much about all the technical details when they can deal with the abstraction directly.

vaylian 6y ago

Welcome to the real world, where numbers can be illegal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number (And no, I don't like this)

jagger27 6y ago

Bitcoin mining uses purpose built ASICs now. Maybe start there?

qertoip 6y ago
This will get you nowhere. Already, Monero successfully employs general CPU-s for its PoW. Bitcoin could switch to another PoW algorithm if critically necessary. Decentralized cryptocurrencies are beautiful hydras.

beforeolives 6y ago

Everything you do digitally can be reduced down to "doing calculations" and some of those things are already illegal (and with good reason). There might be some good arguments in Bitcoin's defence but this isn't one of them.