5 ms·

Starlink's latent China crisis could spark a whole new world of warcraft

16 points by samizdis 6y ago

mytailorisrich 6y ago
Musk has good enough relations and shared interests with the Chinese government that Tesla has the first fully foreign-owned car factory in China. This means that if the Chinese government does not want Starlink in China then SpaceX will make an effort to comply. I'm not familiar with Starlink's technology but that could include geofencing the terminals (e.g. if they have GPS), restricting downlink beams, etc. in addition to obviously not selling terminals in China and not accepting customers located in China.
- skissane 6y ago
  > I'm not familiar with Starlink's technology but that could include geofencing the terminals (if they have GPS) Starlink already has geofencing. The terminals stop working if you take them more than a certain distance away from the registered address (I forget exactly how far that is, let's just say 50 km). The terminals don't need GPS to do this [0]. The satellites know where they are, and hence they know roughly where the terminal they are talking to is. No need for GPS to be involved. The satellites can't get an exact location to the metre, but rough geofencing only requires an approximate location. (Starlink satellites can't function as GPS satellites because their onboard clocks are not precise enough for that; however, they still can be used to get an indication of terminal location, just not with the accuracy GPS provides.) I assume they will offer services with a different geofencing configuration – they are talking about offering mobile services for boats, aircraft, etc, so that won't work if it is geofenced to the customer's registered address. However, even that service they will likely geofence to prevent service in countries where they lack regulatory approval. There is the likelihood of some "bleed-over" if you are near an international border between a country with approved service and a country without it, and Starlink can't tell which side of the border you are on. I expect SpaceX will say that they are only required to make best efforts to prevent unauthorised service. I expect they'll offer US government and military customers a service with geofencing totally disabled. (And likely also the governments and militaries of US allies, provided the US government is okay with that.) [0] Edit: Thanks to replies for pointing out the Starlink terminals do actually contain a GPS receiver and so can use that for geofencing as well. My point was you don't need GPS to geofence a satellite constellation since the satellites know where they are. Although of course GPS can make geofencing more accurate. One at least theoretical drawback of GPS, is a tampered terminal could lie about its GPS location; methods relying on the location of the satellite in orbit can't be overcome by tampering with the terminal. I expect they actually consider both factors.
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    I have Googled the teardown of a terminal and they do have GPS. That plus beam steering for the downlink at the satellite, which indeed in itself gives an indication of the terminal's location, means that it is technically feasible for SpaceX not to serve China is they so wish. "Latent crisis" averted. > The terminals stop working if you take them more than a certain distance away from the registered address I don't know about Starlink but I know that other telecom equipments (e.g. come 4G home repeaters) are similarly geofenced and they use GPS for that. It's likely that Starlink's terminals have a similar feature.
  - ryzvonusef 6y ago
    iirc there is a GPS chip inside the terminals, I recall hearing about that on the youtube video of it's teardown. also, the geofencing thing seems to be a FCC requirement, because starlink recently applied permission for selling terminals to moving vehicles, anything from ships to RVs.
- yorwba 6y ago
  > Musk has good enough relations and shared interests with the Chinese government that Tesla has the first fully foreign-owned car factory in China. I don't think you can attribute that to some kind of special relationship. Tesla did not yet have a local factory when the joint-venture requirement fell, so they could start directly as a wholly foreign-owned enterprise. Established companies needed to buy out their partners first if they wanted full ownership, e.g. Hyundai in Sichuan https://www.chinapev.com/baic/hyundai/hyundai-motor-group-acquires-100-of-sichuan-hyundai-corners-commercial-vehicle-market-in-china/ https://www.chinapev.com/baic/hyundai/hyundai-motor-group-ac...
AzzieElbab 6y ago
Not everything is about China. Owning starlink infrastructure is a game changer is the US and Europe just as well

16 points by samizdis 6y ago

Musk has good enough relations and shared interests with the Chinese government that Tesla has the first fully foreign-owned car factory in China. This means that if the Chinese government does not want Starlink in China then SpaceX will make an effort to comply. I'm not familiar with Starlink's technology but that could include geofencing the terminals (e.g. if they have GPS), restricting downlink beams, etc. in addition to obviously not selling terminals in China and not accepting customers located in China.

skissane 6y ago
> I'm not familiar with Starlink's technology but that could include geofencing the terminals (if they have GPS) Starlink already has geofencing. The terminals stop working if you take them more than a certain distance away from the registered address (I forget exactly how far that is, let's just say 50 km). The terminals don't need GPS to do this [0]. The satellites know where they are, and hence they know roughly where the terminal they are talking to is. No need for GPS to be involved. The satellites can't get an exact location to the metre, but rough geofencing only requires an approximate location. (Starlink satellites can't function as GPS satellites because their onboard clocks are not precise enough for that; however, they still can be used to get an indication of terminal location, just not with the accuracy GPS provides.) I assume they will offer services with a different geofencing configuration – they are talking about offering mobile services for boats, aircraft, etc, so that won't work if it is geofenced to the customer's registered address. However, even that service they will likely geofence to prevent service in countries where they lack regulatory approval. There is the likelihood of some "bleed-over" if you are near an international border between a country with approved service and a country without it, and Starlink can't tell which side of the border you are on. I expect SpaceX will say that they are only required to make best efforts to prevent unauthorised service. I expect they'll offer US government and military customers a service with geofencing totally disabled. (And likely also the governments and militaries of US allies, provided the US government is okay with that.) [0] Edit: Thanks to replies for pointing out the Starlink terminals do actually contain a GPS receiver and so can use that for geofencing as well. My point was you don't need GPS to geofence a satellite constellation since the satellites know where they are. Although of course GPS can make geofencing more accurate. One at least theoretical drawback of GPS, is a tampered terminal could lie about its GPS location; methods relying on the location of the satellite in orbit can't be overcome by tampering with the terminal. I expect they actually consider both factors.
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  I have Googled the teardown of a terminal and they do have GPS. That plus beam steering for the downlink at the satellite, which indeed in itself gives an indication of the terminal's location, means that it is technically feasible for SpaceX not to serve China is they so wish. "Latent crisis" averted. > The terminals stop working if you take them more than a certain distance away from the registered address I don't know about Starlink but I know that other telecom equipments (e.g. come 4G home repeaters) are similarly geofenced and they use GPS for that. It's likely that Starlink's terminals have a similar feature.
- ryzvonusef 6y ago
  iirc there is a GPS chip inside the terminals, I recall hearing about that on the youtube video of it's teardown. also, the geofencing thing seems to be a FCC requirement, because starlink recently applied permission for selling terminals to moving vehicles, anything from ships to RVs.
yorwba 6y ago
> Musk has good enough relations and shared interests with the Chinese government that Tesla has the first fully foreign-owned car factory in China. I don't think you can attribute that to some kind of special relationship. Tesla did not yet have a local factory when the joint-venture requirement fell, so they could start directly as a wholly foreign-owned enterprise. Established companies needed to buy out their partners first if they wanted full ownership, e.g. Hyundai in Sichuan https://www.chinapev.com/baic/hyundai/hyundai-motor-group-acquires-100-of-sichuan-hyundai-corners-commercial-vehicle-market-in-china/ https://www.chinapev.com/baic/hyundai/hyundai-motor-group-ac...

AzzieElbab 6y ago

Not everything is about China. Owning starlink infrastructure is a game changer is the US and Europe just as well