8 ms·

I'm Spanish and I've lived in Germany, the UK, and in short stints in the US, and some of what you say resonates with me. In particular: > Here work seems to a

I'm Spanish and I've lived in Germany, the UK, and in short stints in the US, and some of what you say resonates with me. In particular: > Here work seems to always be some tedious chore that keeps you away from social life This is just one manifestation of what's more generally a very poor work culture, in what amounts to a giant, self-reinforcing negative feedback loop. Management often lacks professionalism, salaries are poor, and employees are demotivated and must therefore look to anything but work for fulfillment. To be clear, I don't believe this is inherently Spanish, due to our genes, the climate, or our love for fiesta: similar phenomena could be observed locally in the US or Northern Europe. The problem in Spain is how widespread these attitudes are, in a macro context where good opportunities have been scarce for decades, probably due to the lack of a vision for a national productive model and any effective policies in this regard. Personally I believe any permanent solution will need to come simultaneously in a top-down and bottom-up fashion, with both effective state policies and a change in attitudes from individuals. The catalyst would likely need to be a multi-partisan, national and universal social pact rallying institutions (politics, education, unions, businesses, etc.) around a well-defined vision. Anyone who follows Spanish politics knows that unfortunately at present that possibility is extremely remote.

mschuster91 6y ago
> and employees are demotivated and must therefore look to anything but work for fulfillment It is a sad state of affairs that people are looking for "fulfillment" in work at all. Why are we still forced to work 40 hours a week or more to barely survive?
- sverhagen 6y ago
  People should make living wages, without forced overwork, burnout, and other sorts of abuse. But if I get fulfillment out of my work, could I please? It's not for everyone, but for me it's everything.
- arcturus17 6y ago
  Note how I never said that work should be your main source of fulfillment. But yes, I whole-heartedly believe that people should derive some meaning out of work, as they devote ~40 of their waking hours to that activity, and it can be a cornerstone of a person's identity. And meaning can take many forms: that you're doing something for yourself, for your family, for your community or your nation, that you intrinsically enjoy the task at hand, or a combination thereof. This is a common characteristic of thriving nations I've observed in my travels and readings, and conversely, I think that nations that do not have this trait are bound to decline or even crash. Note how I also do not entirely blame Spaniards for a problem that is clearly systemic; on the other hand, I do believe that we as individual citizens should remain strong in the face of adversity, and not succumb to providential fatalism, as this will also inevitably lead to national misery.
- astrange 6y ago
  Well, you don't want to design work to be anti-fulfilling, do you? I suppose it's OK if it's neutral.
- fidelramos 6y ago
  We don't need to work 40 hours a week to "barely survive", these 40 hours give people a standard of living that was unthinkable centuries ago. If you accept the lower standards of living of the past you can work much fewer hours. On the other hand if you want modern housing, electricity, water, gas, Internet, a modern house, a car, a smartphone, a computer, fridge, freezer, washing machine, dishwasher, etc., then of course you need to work to afford them.
thefz 6y ago
> To be clear, I don't believe this is inherently Spanish, due to our genes, the climate, or our love for fiesta: similar phenomena could be observed locally in the US or Northern Europe. It is more or less the same here in Italy. Jobs are so scarce that one has to be grateful for anything better than straight unemployment thus enabling a whole ecosystem of low pay, asshole bosses and coworkers, and toxic work attitude all around.
joaodlf 6y ago
> The problem in Spain is how prevalent these attitudes are, in a macro context where good opportunities have been scarce for decades This really nails it. I'm originally from Portugal (now living and working in the UK). Staying late and maintaining presence was a really big thing in Portugal. You really are looked down on when you leave early, it's a really terrible work culture, it genuinely felt like people would either overwork themselves or just generally do nothing with that extra time. I tell my friends this story all the time: When I first arrived to the UK and started working, I asked my company about having my work email on my phone, my manager just had a completely blank face - "why do you need your work email on your phone?". I have been happily employed with this company for nearly 8 years now, never once feeling the need to stay late or go beyond the contracted hours. If I put in overtime, it's because I want to (most of the time because I actually enjoy the work). Oh, and I am paid for overtime. Completely unheard of in Portugal. I know a lot of these things might be company culture specific, but there is definitely a level within geography - The lesser opportunities available, the more is expected out of you. As if having the opportunity to work should be seen as some sort of blessing.
- mattmanser 6y ago
  The irony of this and the parent comment is the UK regularly come up as a country that the exact same problem happens in. The UK has notoriously low productivity compared to Europe and the US, and longer average work hours than the rest of Europe. These are larger aggregate studies. I wonder why both your experiences of the UK seem so at odds with the observed studies? Is it just the field you're in? Some examples: https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/british-workers-putting-longest-hours-eu-tuc-analysis-finds https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/british-workers-putting-longest-... https://www.businessleader.co.uk/uk-employees-work-the-longest-hours-but-are-the-least-productive-and-office-flirting-is-to-blame/62406/ https://www.businessleader.co.uk/uk-employees-work-the-longe... EDIT: Downvoted for actual studies vs anecdotes. Fabulous. Not only that, these studies have been coming out for years.
  - vidarh 6y ago
    Indeed, this from Eurostat includes Portugal and Spain, both of which have lower average working hours than the UK. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/DDN-20180125-1 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/D...
sbacic 6y ago
I don't think this issue is specific to Spain - judging by the rest of the comments and my own personal experience (Croatia) this problem seems endemic to much of southern Europe. I suspect at least part of the issue is due to climate. I wonder if there is a similar trend in the US?
- arcturus17 6y ago
  I've thought about this and discussed it a few times with friends, but every conclusion I've ever reached seems quite unscientific, so I've never held on to any of it. There are quite a few counterexamples of thriving economies with warm climates: California, Miami, Texas, Singapore off the top of my mind. Historically, the Greeks and Romans achieved splendor in the classical era in Southern Europe. In the modern era, the Ottomans and some Italic kingdoms did as well. Spain and Portugal most certainly did as well, but maybe these are all too similar to oil-rich countries nowadays in that they held quasi-monopolies over valuable resources of their time, so I'm not sure they would qualify as much as the others. Conversely, there are quite a few examples of really bad economies in cold climates. There may be some correlation between climate and the odds of success of a nation or region, but I believe the counter-examples prove there is no definite causation. It's too easy to fall into the fatalistic idea of "we're fucked because it's warm and cozy here" but I will refuse to accept that until I see unequivocal scientific evidence to back it up.
- grillvogel 6y ago
  i used to work at an IBM office in the southwest. at the time we were considered lazy and laid back compared to the old school IBM offices back on the east coast
Arete314159 6y ago
I'm part Spanish, grew up mostly in the US, but often have to engage with Spain in order to do paperwork. Does anyone who's lived there for a while have any insight on why tasks that I could accomplish in the US in 12 weeks take like 5 years in Spain? Why is every form and document and signature and approval process seemingly arbitrary? Why is the person you need for the next step always on vacation? Is there some kind of a system where 5 people are drawing a salary for a job that 1 person could do, so they all mutually agree to do it as slowly as possible? I just don't get it.
- brnt 6y ago
  If you hold the US as a paragon of administrative velocity, you haven't completed your tour of countries my friend. As a Dutchman, who is by no means a fan of the country, can only tremble in horror whenever paperwork abroad had/has to be done. There may be a difference between Spain and the US, it's insignificant between the NL and the rest. Well, I hear good things about Scandinavian countries too. I haven't had the opportunity yet to work/live there, hope to get around to it though!
doublejay1999 6y ago
Imagine a culture that does not fetishize work!

mschuster91 6y ago

> and employees are demotivated and must therefore look to anything but work for fulfillment It is a sad state of affairs that people are looking for "fulfillment" in work at all. Why are we still forced to work 40 hours a week or more to barely survive?

sverhagen 6y ago
People should make living wages, without forced overwork, burnout, and other sorts of abuse. But if I get fulfillment out of my work, could I please? It's not for everyone, but for me it's everything.
arcturus17 6y ago
Note how I never said that work should be your main source of fulfillment. But yes, I whole-heartedly believe that people should derive some meaning out of work, as they devote ~40 of their waking hours to that activity, and it can be a cornerstone of a person's identity. And meaning can take many forms: that you're doing something for yourself, for your family, for your community or your nation, that you intrinsically enjoy the task at hand, or a combination thereof. This is a common characteristic of thriving nations I've observed in my travels and readings, and conversely, I think that nations that do not have this trait are bound to decline or even crash. Note how I also do not entirely blame Spaniards for a problem that is clearly systemic; on the other hand, I do believe that we as individual citizens should remain strong in the face of adversity, and not succumb to providential fatalism, as this will also inevitably lead to national misery.
astrange 6y ago
Well, you don't want to design work to be anti-fulfilling, do you? I suppose it's OK if it's neutral.
fidelramos 6y ago
We don't need to work 40 hours a week to "barely survive", these 40 hours give people a standard of living that was unthinkable centuries ago. If you accept the lower standards of living of the past you can work much fewer hours. On the other hand if you want modern housing, electricity, water, gas, Internet, a modern house, a car, a smartphone, a computer, fridge, freezer, washing machine, dishwasher, etc., then of course you need to work to afford them.

thefz 6y ago

> To be clear, I don't believe this is inherently Spanish, due to our genes, the climate, or our love for fiesta: similar phenomena could be observed locally in the US or Northern Europe. It is more or less the same here in Italy. Jobs are so scarce that one has to be grateful for anything better than straight unemployment thus enabling a whole ecosystem of low pay, asshole bosses and coworkers, and toxic work attitude all around.

joaodlf 6y ago

> The problem in Spain is how prevalent these attitudes are, in a macro context where good opportunities have been scarce for decades This really nails it. I'm originally from Portugal (now living and working in the UK). Staying late and maintaining presence was a really big thing in Portugal. You really are looked down on when you leave early, it's a really terrible work culture, it genuinely felt like people would either overwork themselves or just generally do nothing with that extra time. I tell my friends this story all the time: When I first arrived to the UK and started working, I asked my company about having my work email on my phone, my manager just had a completely blank face - "why do you need your work email on your phone?". I have been happily employed with this company for nearly 8 years now, never once feeling the need to stay late or go beyond the contracted hours. If I put in overtime, it's because I want to (most of the time because I actually enjoy the work). Oh, and I am paid for overtime. Completely unheard of in Portugal. I know a lot of these things might be company culture specific, but there is definitely a level within geography - The lesser opportunities available, the more is expected out of you. As if having the opportunity to work should be seen as some sort of blessing.

mattmanser 6y ago
The irony of this and the parent comment is the UK regularly come up as a country that the exact same problem happens in. The UK has notoriously low productivity compared to Europe and the US, and longer average work hours than the rest of Europe. These are larger aggregate studies. I wonder why both your experiences of the UK seem so at odds with the observed studies? Is it just the field you're in? Some examples: https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/british-workers-putting-longest-hours-eu-tuc-analysis-finds https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/british-workers-putting-longest-... https://www.businessleader.co.uk/uk-employees-work-the-longest-hours-but-are-the-least-productive-and-office-flirting-is-to-blame/62406/ https://www.businessleader.co.uk/uk-employees-work-the-longe... EDIT: Downvoted for actual studies vs anecdotes. Fabulous. Not only that, these studies have been coming out for years.
- vidarh 6y ago
  Indeed, this from Eurostat includes Portugal and Spain, both of which have lower average working hours than the UK. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/DDN-20180125-1 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/D...

sbacic 6y ago

I don't think this issue is specific to Spain - judging by the rest of the comments and my own personal experience (Croatia) this problem seems endemic to much of southern Europe. I suspect at least part of the issue is due to climate. I wonder if there is a similar trend in the US?

arcturus17 6y ago
I've thought about this and discussed it a few times with friends, but every conclusion I've ever reached seems quite unscientific, so I've never held on to any of it. There are quite a few counterexamples of thriving economies with warm climates: California, Miami, Texas, Singapore off the top of my mind. Historically, the Greeks and Romans achieved splendor in the classical era in Southern Europe. In the modern era, the Ottomans and some Italic kingdoms did as well. Spain and Portugal most certainly did as well, but maybe these are all too similar to oil-rich countries nowadays in that they held quasi-monopolies over valuable resources of their time, so I'm not sure they would qualify as much as the others. Conversely, there are quite a few examples of really bad economies in cold climates. There may be some correlation between climate and the odds of success of a nation or region, but I believe the counter-examples prove there is no definite causation. It's too easy to fall into the fatalistic idea of "we're fucked because it's warm and cozy here" but I will refuse to accept that until I see unequivocal scientific evidence to back it up.
grillvogel 6y ago
i used to work at an IBM office in the southwest. at the time we were considered lazy and laid back compared to the old school IBM offices back on the east coast

Arete314159 6y ago

I'm part Spanish, grew up mostly in the US, but often have to engage with Spain in order to do paperwork. Does anyone who's lived there for a while have any insight on why tasks that I could accomplish in the US in 12 weeks take like 5 years in Spain? Why is every form and document and signature and approval process seemingly arbitrary? Why is the person you need for the next step always on vacation? Is there some kind of a system where 5 people are drawing a salary for a job that 1 person could do, so they all mutually agree to do it as slowly as possible? I just don't get it.

brnt 6y ago
If you hold the US as a paragon of administrative velocity, you haven't completed your tour of countries my friend. As a Dutchman, who is by no means a fan of the country, can only tremble in horror whenever paperwork abroad had/has to be done. There may be a difference between Spain and the US, it's insignificant between the NL and the rest. Well, I hear good things about Scandinavian countries too. I haven't had the opportunity yet to work/live there, hope to get around to it though!

doublejay1999 6y ago

Imagine a culture that does not fetishize work!