4 ms·

The problem is not spam or bots, the problem is that most commenters just post worthless shit. I mean, even on HN, which I consider above average, you have to

by yarcob 6y ago

The problem is not spam or bots, the problem is that most commenters just post worthless shit. I mean, even on HN, which I consider above average, you have to read 100s of comments before you read one comment that really challenges your thoughts. 99% of comments are from highly opiniated people with little subject matter experience and no concern for subtlety. It's just not a very good value proposition. I have a newspaper subscription and like reading editorials, because they often have interesting people talk about relevant topics. Usually the "professional" comments are a lot less divisive, and a lot more fact based than the simplistic bullshit that tends to be upvoted in comment sections. I still like reading user comments, but I don't think they are a replacement for good journalism or professional writers.

nosianu 6y ago
I believe a huge problem of sites like reddit or HN is that from my, a comment writers PoV, it is just not worth it to spend much time on a comment. Even when I feel like writing one, I still only spend a fraction of effort. The big problem: All comments have a half-life of half a day at most, and even during that short time they are buried in a mountain of other comments. If a story is popular (many potential readers that I could reach) there will also be hundreds of comments, mostly low quality, that make finding good ones hard. If there only a few comments so a good one will stand out more there won't be many readers. Writing a blog post has a much higher chance to be found over a larger period of time. Probably, depending on the blog. A choice between getting attention (by borrowing the fame of reddit or HN to draw in readers) for a very short period of time, or be easier to find over longer periods but then it depends on the fame of your own blog. So it is not worth spending a lot of time and effort trying my best because I only reach a handful of people in the first place, but even if it's hundreds, they are all just story- and comment browsing randomly for their daily does of entertainment. That means whatever I write will be forgotten pretty quickly because in the end it's not all that important. Nobody reading any of these comments actually needs them, no matter how much wisdom is in there. What I mean by that is that only when you actually end up using what you read in a practical way does it really matter and you remember. Everything else, even if it's really great wisdom, if you have no practical application for it in our own life your brain does not put any priority on retaining the content. Even apart from comments, I for example took loads of courses (edX, Coursera) outside my own field, at the time I spent a lot of effort and even became a community TA in some of those courses (chemistry, statistics, biology). However, I forgot soooo much by now, because in the end none of it has any practical implications for me. With some completely random (all kinds of topics!) comments, even when they are good, it's much worse. Therefore I don't expect such comment sites to ever rise above what we have now. It just does not really matter for either readers or writers. The quality will always just be "good enough" (on the low side). PS: Oh and by the way, in my long reddit and HN experience, what gives the most "Likes" rarely is the quality technical stuff - but rare personal anecdotes.
- KineticLensman 6y ago
  > Nobody reading any of these comments actually needs them, no matter how much wisdom is in there. Disagree. Reading these comments, especially when they relate to specific technologies, I have come across numerous systems, resources and techniques that I have gone on to use in practice. I'll just take this opportunity to say a quiet 'thank-you' to their respective authors.
  - nosianu 6y ago
    My point is that that is exceedingly rare - it is a statistics game. For the commenters too. You read and write all your life. You don't spend 100% on every comment, even the most committed commenter soon settles into an equilibrium of effort vs. perceived/expected rewards (how many people are you likely to reach that would truly benefit). For example, you see somebody posting what you know is a big misconception. You spend time and effort educating and clearing it up. Even if you succeed, you soon run out of patience - you reached a hundred people, 5 of whom cared and will remember. However, there are a few hundred million left in the world who still have that misconception, and there still are way more daily conversations and blog posts where the misconception is spread. You on the other hand spent half an hour education a handful of people. How long until you ignore comments you know are wrong and just shrug and go on with your life? Answering a specific one-time question by pointing to some resource or project is easy enough in comparison. I did not mean to imply that all comments are always useless. I did not think it would be necessary to point that out. See, that's another problem, somebody always comes up with an interpretation of what you write that will make you spend even more time to clarify because you never thought that interpretation would happen.
    - repartix 6y ago
      How would you prefer comments to work? Could comments be assigned some big weight that has the effect of the comment staying around high enough to clear the misconception? Could each thread be allowed only a finite number of comments or words, to not disperse attention, with lower quality comments forced to disappear? Could there be a fool-proof mechanism to force comments you know are wrong to disappear? If a new site like HN or Reddit showed up, how would would like it work? I ask because I'm toying with the idea of one. Thoughtful beta users get in touch.
kubanczyk 6y ago
> even on HN [...] you have to read 100s of comments before you read one comment that really challenges your thoughts Not trying to be rude or a smartass, but umm... your comment didn't pass its own bar. Because you've set the bar incredibly high. Even on HN, people come for some chatter/community, not only to have their worldview challenged every minute of the hour. Also, chatter is not the same as "no concern for subtlety".

by yarcob 6y ago

nosianu 6y ago

I believe a huge problem of sites like reddit or HN is that from my, a comment writers PoV, it is just not worth it to spend much time on a comment. Even when I feel like writing one, I still only spend a fraction of effort. The big problem: All comments have a half-life of half a day at most, and even during that short time they are buried in a mountain of other comments. If a story is popular (many potential readers that I could reach) there will also be hundreds of comments, mostly low quality, that make finding good ones hard. If there only a few comments so a good one will stand out more there won't be many readers. Writing a blog post has a much higher chance to be found over a larger period of time. Probably, depending on the blog. A choice between getting attention (by borrowing the fame of reddit or HN to draw in readers) for a very short period of time, or be easier to find over longer periods but then it depends on the fame of your own blog. So it is not worth spending a lot of time and effort trying my best because I only reach a handful of people in the first place, but even if it's hundreds, they are all just story- and comment browsing randomly for their daily does of entertainment. That means whatever I write will be forgotten pretty quickly because in the end it's not all that important. Nobody reading any of these comments actually needs them, no matter how much wisdom is in there. What I mean by that is that only when you actually end up using what you read in a practical way does it really matter and you remember. Everything else, even if it's really great wisdom, if you have no practical application for it in our own life your brain does not put any priority on retaining the content. Even apart from comments, I for example took loads of courses (edX, Coursera) outside my own field, at the time I spent a lot of effort and even became a community TA in some of those courses (chemistry, statistics, biology). However, I forgot soooo much by now, because in the end none of it has any practical implications for me. With some completely random (all kinds of topics!) comments, even when they are good, it's much worse. Therefore I don't expect such comment sites to ever rise above what we have now. It just does not really matter for either readers or writers. The quality will always just be "good enough" (on the low side). PS: Oh and by the way, in my long reddit and HN experience, what gives the most "Likes" rarely is the quality technical stuff - but rare personal anecdotes.

KineticLensman 6y ago
> Nobody reading any of these comments actually needs them, no matter how much wisdom is in there. Disagree. Reading these comments, especially when they relate to specific technologies, I have come across numerous systems, resources and techniques that I have gone on to use in practice. I'll just take this opportunity to say a quiet 'thank-you' to their respective authors.
- nosianu 6y ago
  My point is that that is exceedingly rare - it is a statistics game. For the commenters too. You read and write all your life. You don't spend 100% on every comment, even the most committed commenter soon settles into an equilibrium of effort vs. perceived/expected rewards (how many people are you likely to reach that would truly benefit). For example, you see somebody posting what you know is a big misconception. You spend time and effort educating and clearing it up. Even if you succeed, you soon run out of patience - you reached a hundred people, 5 of whom cared and will remember. However, there are a few hundred million left in the world who still have that misconception, and there still are way more daily conversations and blog posts where the misconception is spread. You on the other hand spent half an hour education a handful of people. How long until you ignore comments you know are wrong and just shrug and go on with your life? Answering a specific one-time question by pointing to some resource or project is easy enough in comparison. I did not mean to imply that all comments are always useless. I did not think it would be necessary to point that out. See, that's another problem, somebody always comes up with an interpretation of what you write that will make you spend even more time to clarify because you never thought that interpretation would happen.
  - repartix 6y ago
    How would you prefer comments to work? Could comments be assigned some big weight that has the effect of the comment staying around high enough to clear the misconception? Could each thread be allowed only a finite number of comments or words, to not disperse attention, with lower quality comments forced to disappear? Could there be a fool-proof mechanism to force comments you know are wrong to disappear? If a new site like HN or Reddit showed up, how would would like it work? I ask because I'm toying with the idea of one. Thoughtful beta users get in touch.

kubanczyk 6y ago

> even on HN [...] you have to read 100s of comments before you read one comment that really challenges your thoughts Not trying to be rude or a smartass, but umm... your comment didn't pass its own bar. Because you've set the bar incredibly high. Even on HN, people come for some chatter/community, not only to have their worldview challenged every minute of the hour. Also, chatter is not the same as "no concern for subtlety".