9 ms·

Growing up in Spain, I am currently living back here after living over 14 years in Germany and spending most of my working life there. I am half Spanish and hal

Growing up in Spain, I am currently living back here after living over 14 years in Germany and spending most of my working life there. I am half Spanish and half German and have a good perspective on both mentalities in general. In my opinion the problem in Spain is definitely the mindset towards work and the way it is perceived. Here work seems to always be some tedious chore that keeps you away from social live. I do not know many people who truly enjoy their job. A couple of years ago my girlfriend came from Spain to live with me in Germany and got a job. After the first day she came home at 10:00 pm (work ended at 6:00 pm). I was worried that they were making her work to hard the first day, but when she came home she told me she just stayed late doing nothing for the new boss seeing her put in the effort... That really really reminded me why I left Spain to work in Germany. I just do not get that kind of attitude, when I confronted her about it she told me that this behavior was expected in all the places she worked at. Leaving early (or even on time), even if you are effective and have done you work is frowned upon by both coworkers and managers. Paradoxically people might even consider you lazy. So I am really expectant to see how this experiment turns out and if it achieves a change in mentality or if it is just a way to spend tax money and make some “friends of friends” rich as politicians like to do in Spain by subsidizing companies that once the state money runs out go back to normal.

tumetab1 6y ago
At least Portugal it's not like that /sarcasm :D I'm keeping on eye on the experiment because of that, maybe this is a better way to increase productivity in cultures like these.
FullMetalBitch 6y ago
Plenty of assholes bosses in Spain, in my experience I have been very honest from the beginning I had sick people I have to take care of and sometimes I have to leave early or I can't just go to work I was always willing to work remote that day when the job allowed it. The worst part of working in Spain is the work is usually from 9 to 14 and from 15 to 18 or variations of that, instead of 8 hours straight.
- lnsru 6y ago
  Well, we have in Germany in a German company mandatory 42 minutes long lunch break. So 8 hours straight isn’t feasible. I would really love to ditch 42 minutes long break and have real 15 minutes meal break with punchcard sign out/sign in. Now we just have one hour long breaks taking a walk and eating afterwards.
  - varjag 6y ago
    Why 42, specifically? It can't be some HHGTG joke, it's Germany!
  - wizardofdos 6y ago
    Can't have that in Germany as labour laws require a 30 minutes break if working more than 6 hours and an extra 15 minutes if working more than 9 hours (including the 30 minutes break. So the best your company could do would be 30 minutes instead of 42.
  - FullMetalBitch 6y ago
    No one should work 8 hours straight but something like 7.00-15.00. Spain also has a mandatory break after 6 hours of work (15 mins and up) and it counts as working time. In the steel industry there are three working times, 6.00 - 14.00, 14.00 - 22.00, 22.00 - 6.00 much better than working from 9.00 to 14.00 and from 15.00 to 18.00.
outime 6y ago
I’m yet another spaniard abroad for close to a decade and couldn’t agree more, it’s like night and day. The only way to have a decent job in Spain is by working for a foreign company (as a remote worker or FTE if they have a spanish office) from which you can get a decent salary and work conditions or creating your own company if you’re successful. Otherwise, working for spanish companies in Spain is most of the times a death sentence and may as well make you hate your job forever.
arcturus17 6y ago
I'm Spanish and I've lived in Germany, the UK, and in short stints in the US, and some of what you say resonates with me. In particular: > Here work seems to always be some tedious chore that keeps you away from social life This is just one manifestation of what's more generally a very poor work culture, in what amounts to a giant, self-reinforcing negative feedback loop. Management often lacks professionalism, salaries are poor, and employees are demotivated and must therefore look to anything but work for fulfillment. To be clear, I don't believe this is inherently Spanish, due to our genes, the climate, or our love for fiesta: similar phenomena could be observed locally in the US or Northern Europe. The problem in Spain is how widespread these attitudes are, in a macro context where good opportunities have been scarce for decades, probably due to the lack of a vision for a national productive model and any effective policies in this regard. Personally I believe any permanent solution will need to come simultaneously in a top-down and bottom-up fashion, with both effective state policies and a change in attitudes from individuals. The catalyst would likely need to be a multi-partisan, national and universal social pact rallying institutions (politics, education, unions, businesses, etc.) around a well-defined vision. Anyone who follows Spanish politics knows that unfortunately at present that possibility is extremely remote.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  > and employees are demotivated and must therefore look to anything but work for fulfillment It is a sad state of affairs that people are looking for "fulfillment" in work at all. Why are we still forced to work 40 hours a week or more to barely survive?
  - sverhagen 6y ago
    People should make living wages, without forced overwork, burnout, and other sorts of abuse. But if I get fulfillment out of my work, could I please? It's not for everyone, but for me it's everything.
  - arcturus17 6y ago
    Note how I never said that work should be your main source of fulfillment. But yes, I whole-heartedly believe that people should derive some meaning out of work, as they devote ~40 of their waking hours to that activity, and it can be a cornerstone of a person's identity. And meaning can take many forms: that you're doing something for yourself, for your family, for your community or your nation, that you intrinsically enjoy the task at hand, or a combination thereof. This is a common characteristic of thriving nations I've observed in my travels and readings, and conversely, I think that nations that do not have this trait are bound to decline or even crash. Note how I also do not entirely blame Spaniards for a problem that is clearly systemic; on the other hand, I do believe that we as individual citizens should remain strong in the face of adversity, and not succumb to providential fatalism, as this will also inevitably lead to national misery.
Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago
I have one of the most exciting jobs one can have, being an academic, and still in Spain the system does as much as it can to make it a tedious toil. We are always swamped in huge piles of bureaucracy, it's difficult not to be caught in some evaluation or other that requires you to spend months devoting countless hours to mindless paperwork (for the last one, I literally submitted a more than 1800-page PDF. I'm not exaggerating, I just checked). There are so many evaluations (6-year research evaluations from the Spanish government, research complement evaluations from the regional government, evaluations of research centers, evaluations of the PhD program, 5-year Docentia teaching evaluations, accreditations for the countless positions in the scale, with the subsequent evaluation for the position itself...) that we are subject to several a year, each with their own CV format and their own forms incompatible with the rest and asking for different things. And then there is the day-to-day bureaucracy where buying a computer can mean filling 10-15 different forms. Paperwork takes most of our time and being able to do some "real work" feels like a reward that one has to earn. Still the real work is rewarding, but I wish it were like in other countries (say northern Europe, the US...) where real work can be most of the time. (And why didn't I migrate? Because of attachment to my place and my loved ones, like many people here. If work were my main driver in life I'd have been out of here long ago). As for the experiment, I hope it achieves success but I wouldn't hold my breath. Under the current political climate, I'm afraid even if it's an undisputable success, the moment a right-wing government is voted to office they will tear it down because it's "communism", "handouts", "will turn us into Venezuela" or something like that. It's difficult to achieve anything with the current political polarization (and the main party that was between both blocs, currently in danger of extinction).
- anm89 6y ago
  > We are always swamped in huge piles of bureaucracy This seems to be true of academia almost anywhere I have heard people talk about life in academia.
permo-w 6y ago
To me, that attitude sounds like a good thing. It sounds like the Spanish, or at least the Spanish that you’ve come across, haven’t been sucked in by the unforgiving ideals of capitalism. It pleases me that they’d find ways to enjoy their life that don’t involve economic efficiency
zerr 6y ago
Is it the same in other southern countries as well? (Portugal, Italy, Greece)
pezezin 6y ago
I'm Spanish myself, I worked there for 10 years, and I never understood that mindset. Every place where I worked I would leave as soon as my working day ended. I'm now working in Japan, a country famous for inventing the word "karoshi" (death from overwork), I'm I do the same. The only place where I would leave late was when I was working as a research assistant at my university, because my boss was super nice, the environment was friendly, my job was really interesting, and I was happy.
__saykou 6y ago
From next door Portugal its the same thing exactly, negative feedback loop. Here we work to live, and in other northern countries they live to work. I never forget I was on a plane next to a German fellow he asked me if I liked to work, I said "yes because I like to build stuff, but if I worked as cashier earning minimum wage I would not probably like it", he said "Why so? Even if making a small wage you are useful and you see people and greet them ..." that simply made me think and it broke a little bit of the negative feedback, and I really think that I was brainwashed to hate any job. By the way we are not all like that but most are.

tumetab1 6y ago

At least Portugal it's not like that /sarcasm :D I'm keeping on eye on the experiment because of that, maybe this is a better way to increase productivity in cultures like these.

FullMetalBitch 6y ago

Plenty of assholes bosses in Spain, in my experience I have been very honest from the beginning I had sick people I have to take care of and sometimes I have to leave early or I can't just go to work I was always willing to work remote that day when the job allowed it. The worst part of working in Spain is the work is usually from 9 to 14 and from 15 to 18 or variations of that, instead of 8 hours straight.

lnsru 6y ago
Well, we have in Germany in a German company mandatory 42 minutes long lunch break. So 8 hours straight isn’t feasible. I would really love to ditch 42 minutes long break and have real 15 minutes meal break with punchcard sign out/sign in. Now we just have one hour long breaks taking a walk and eating afterwards.
- varjag 6y ago
  Why 42, specifically? It can't be some HHGTG joke, it's Germany!
- wizardofdos 6y ago
  Can't have that in Germany as labour laws require a 30 minutes break if working more than 6 hours and an extra 15 minutes if working more than 9 hours (including the 30 minutes break. So the best your company could do would be 30 minutes instead of 42.
- FullMetalBitch 6y ago
  No one should work 8 hours straight but something like 7.00-15.00. Spain also has a mandatory break after 6 hours of work (15 mins and up) and it counts as working time. In the steel industry there are three working times, 6.00 - 14.00, 14.00 - 22.00, 22.00 - 6.00 much better than working from 9.00 to 14.00 and from 15.00 to 18.00.

outime 6y ago

I’m yet another spaniard abroad for close to a decade and couldn’t agree more, it’s like night and day. The only way to have a decent job in Spain is by working for a foreign company (as a remote worker or FTE if they have a spanish office) from which you can get a decent salary and work conditions or creating your own company if you’re successful. Otherwise, working for spanish companies in Spain is most of the times a death sentence and may as well make you hate your job forever.

arcturus17 6y ago

I'm Spanish and I've lived in Germany, the UK, and in short stints in the US, and some of what you say resonates with me. In particular: > Here work seems to always be some tedious chore that keeps you away from social life This is just one manifestation of what's more generally a very poor work culture, in what amounts to a giant, self-reinforcing negative feedback loop. Management often lacks professionalism, salaries are poor, and employees are demotivated and must therefore look to anything but work for fulfillment. To be clear, I don't believe this is inherently Spanish, due to our genes, the climate, or our love for fiesta: similar phenomena could be observed locally in the US or Northern Europe. The problem in Spain is how widespread these attitudes are, in a macro context where good opportunities have been scarce for decades, probably due to the lack of a vision for a national productive model and any effective policies in this regard. Personally I believe any permanent solution will need to come simultaneously in a top-down and bottom-up fashion, with both effective state policies and a change in attitudes from individuals. The catalyst would likely need to be a multi-partisan, national and universal social pact rallying institutions (politics, education, unions, businesses, etc.) around a well-defined vision. Anyone who follows Spanish politics knows that unfortunately at present that possibility is extremely remote.

mschuster91 6y ago
> and employees are demotivated and must therefore look to anything but work for fulfillment It is a sad state of affairs that people are looking for "fulfillment" in work at all. Why are we still forced to work 40 hours a week or more to barely survive?
- sverhagen 6y ago
  People should make living wages, without forced overwork, burnout, and other sorts of abuse. But if I get fulfillment out of my work, could I please? It's not for everyone, but for me it's everything.
- arcturus17 6y ago
  Note how I never said that work should be your main source of fulfillment. But yes, I whole-heartedly believe that people should derive some meaning out of work, as they devote ~40 of their waking hours to that activity, and it can be a cornerstone of a person's identity. And meaning can take many forms: that you're doing something for yourself, for your family, for your community or your nation, that you intrinsically enjoy the task at hand, or a combination thereof. This is a common characteristic of thriving nations I've observed in my travels and readings, and conversely, I think that nations that do not have this trait are bound to decline or even crash. Note how I also do not entirely blame Spaniards for a problem that is clearly systemic; on the other hand, I do believe that we as individual citizens should remain strong in the face of adversity, and not succumb to providential fatalism, as this will also inevitably lead to national misery.

Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago

I have one of the most exciting jobs one can have, being an academic, and still in Spain the system does as much as it can to make it a tedious toil. We are always swamped in huge piles of bureaucracy, it's difficult not to be caught in some evaluation or other that requires you to spend months devoting countless hours to mindless paperwork (for the last one, I literally submitted a more than 1800-page PDF. I'm not exaggerating, I just checked). There are so many evaluations (6-year research evaluations from the Spanish government, research complement evaluations from the regional government, evaluations of research centers, evaluations of the PhD program, 5-year Docentia teaching evaluations, accreditations for the countless positions in the scale, with the subsequent evaluation for the position itself...) that we are subject to several a year, each with their own CV format and their own forms incompatible with the rest and asking for different things. And then there is the day-to-day bureaucracy where buying a computer can mean filling 10-15 different forms. Paperwork takes most of our time and being able to do some "real work" feels like a reward that one has to earn. Still the real work is rewarding, but I wish it were like in other countries (say northern Europe, the US...) where real work can be most of the time. (And why didn't I migrate? Because of attachment to my place and my loved ones, like many people here. If work were my main driver in life I'd have been out of here long ago). As for the experiment, I hope it achieves success but I wouldn't hold my breath. Under the current political climate, I'm afraid even if it's an undisputable success, the moment a right-wing government is voted to office they will tear it down because it's "communism", "handouts", "will turn us into Venezuela" or something like that. It's difficult to achieve anything with the current political polarization (and the main party that was between both blocs, currently in danger of extinction).

anm89 6y ago
> We are always swamped in huge piles of bureaucracy This seems to be true of academia almost anywhere I have heard people talk about life in academia.

permo-w 6y ago

To me, that attitude sounds like a good thing. It sounds like the Spanish, or at least the Spanish that you’ve come across, haven’t been sucked in by the unforgiving ideals of capitalism. It pleases me that they’d find ways to enjoy their life that don’t involve economic efficiency

zerr 6y ago

Is it the same in other southern countries as well? (Portugal, Italy, Greece)

pezezin 6y ago

I'm Spanish myself, I worked there for 10 years, and I never understood that mindset. Every place where I worked I would leave as soon as my working day ended. I'm now working in Japan, a country famous for inventing the word "karoshi" (death from overwork), I'm I do the same. The only place where I would leave late was when I was working as a research assistant at my university, because my boss was super nice, the environment was friendly, my job was really interesting, and I was happy.

__saykou 6y ago

From next door Portugal its the same thing exactly, negative feedback loop. Here we work to live, and in other northern countries they live to work. I never forget I was on a plane next to a German fellow he asked me if I liked to work, I said "yes because I like to build stuff, but if I worked as cashier earning minimum wage I would not probably like it", he said "Why so? Even if making a small wage you are useful and you see people and greet them ..." that simply made me think and it broke a little bit of the negative feedback, and I really think that I was brainwashed to hate any job. By the way we are not all like that but most are.