4 ms·

This is a very simplistic view on development of societies. Freedom must always come accompanied with responsibilities. In the West, we learn that early in sch

by yaix 15y ago

This is a very simplistic view on development of societies. Freedom must always come accompanied with responsibilities. In the West, we learn that early in school and (hopefully) life. I have lived many years in countries where people have not learned that. As a consequence, they all still want freedom (for themselves), but when you start talking about responsibilities, you are not so popular anymore. But it's very popular at home (i.e. in the West), so who cares about the victimes of all this simplistic "development aid"...

yaix 15y ago
Thanks for confirming the censorship in the West regarding this topic. I would have thought I get downvoted more than only (-4) points, though. In the Middle Ages they would have burned me for saying the unsayable. Btw: I have studied thic topic for many years and have lived half my life in the Third World to learn about this issue in practice. Who would have thought that the main problem is ideological ignorance in the West. (And now, downvote me again for talking on topic and contibuting first hand information...)
- corin_ 15y ago
  Two FYIs for you: 1.) Downvoted comments never show as more than -4, -4 means "at least 5 people have downvoted, possibly a lot more" 2.) People thinking that you're talking nonsense doesn't equate to "censorship in the West".
  - yaix 15y ago
    Well, I am not talking nonsense, I am probably much better informed about the topic that most other here. With "censorship" I do not mean government censorship but self-sensorship. It's implated in the heads that certain things are "correct" and whoever dares to question one of these things gets punished. That's what "Ideology" is all about. When the reality is ignored in favour of "the Truth". I actually did the work and lived (and still live) in those places to have a look myself. Nobody cares, because everybody knows "the Truth" already. Downvote me for it.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      Perhaps if you expressed yourself better you'd receive an interesting discussion rather than a bunch of downvoting, but as it is I can't figure out what it is you're saying, except that: a) You think you're right about something and everybody else is wrong, and b) You're being belligerent about it.
      - yaix 15y ago
        Where have I been "belligerent" in my initial (downvoted) post? Where did I say then I was "definitely right"?? I stated my view of the issue, especially that I find the view "freedom of speech == always good" rather simplistic. I also explained briefly (only one argument out on many) why I have this view (resposibility). However, answers to my post where only presented in form of downvotes, rather than opinion or insight. I may have gotten somewhat belligerent (I'd rather say frustrated) as a consequense. Understandably I'd say.
derleth 15y ago
Nobody gets popular anywhere talking about responsibilities. That is a basic fact of the human condition. It would be easier to duck the issue by installing dictatorships everywhere and ensuring nobody ever had to think about their responsibilities ever again. You would make many friends if you implemented such a plan. However, those dictatorships would have to be run by humans. That is a limitation of current technology, perhaps, but it is a constraint we have to live with now. Humans in power abuse the power they have; it is impossible to imagine otherwise. That is another fact of the human condition. Asking for downvotes is infantile.
- yaix 15y ago
  Sorry, but you completely misunderstood (or wanted to misunderstand, and then attack me by implying I wanted to "install dictatorships" everywhere). Wow.
  - derleth 15y ago
    You completely misstated your position and need to learn how to express yourself in English.
bediger 15y ago
I agree that freedom comes accompanied with responsibilities, but not the simplistic, "don't rock the boat" type of responsibilities that 6th Grade teachers talk about. Thomas Drake had a responsibility to expose the NSA's massive waste. Elssberg had a responsibility to expose the Pentagon Papers. Assange and company have a responsibility to get the US diplomatic cables out there. Those forsenic economists (http://www.slate.com/id/2203121/ http://www.slate.com/id/2203121/, http://www.iies.su.se/~ekaplan/coups.pdf http://www.iies.su.se/~ekaplan/coups.pdf) have a responsibility to figure out who profited from knowledge of US-backed coups in Central America. Freedom isn't free of cost. We all have a responsibility to spill the beans about immoral actions by secretive organizations.
- yaix 15y ago
  Agreed. However, we have learned to not abuse freedom for selfish profit, but to maintain and protect it. We learned that freedom is the freedom of speech for others. And to accept conflicting opinions peacefully. This is not a given everywhere, though. Where Social Capital is lacking, freedom can easily become a trigger for a breakdown of personal and public security. Where loyalties are mainly based on family ties or group boundaries, freedom can easily lead to more hate and large scale physical violence. Where education is poor, even the most obvious lie will find people that get angry about it and look for "retaliation", often physical. I am of course not saying that freedom of speech is bad. On the contrary. But is has to be dealed with carefully, and differently in differend societies, taking into account each societies values and development process. Otherwise it may easily (again!) destroy more than it creates. Just think of the "elections" desaster in Africa in the 1990s. A huge (and forseable) tragedy, but it sold well in the West.

by yaix 15y ago

yaix 15y ago

Thanks for confirming the censorship in the West regarding this topic. I would have thought I get downvoted more than only (-4) points, though. In the Middle Ages they would have burned me for saying the unsayable. Btw: I have studied thic topic for many years and have lived half my life in the Third World to learn about this issue in practice. Who would have thought that the main problem is ideological ignorance in the West. (And now, downvote me again for talking on topic and contibuting first hand information...)

corin_ 15y ago
Two FYIs for you: 1.) Downvoted comments never show as more than -4, -4 means "at least 5 people have downvoted, possibly a lot more" 2.) People thinking that you're talking nonsense doesn't equate to "censorship in the West".
- yaix 15y ago
  Well, I am not talking nonsense, I am probably much better informed about the topic that most other here. With "censorship" I do not mean government censorship but self-sensorship. It's implated in the heads that certain things are "correct" and whoever dares to question one of these things gets punished. That's what "Ideology" is all about. When the reality is ignored in favour of "the Truth". I actually did the work and lived (and still live) in those places to have a look myself. Nobody cares, because everybody knows "the Truth" already. Downvote me for it.
  - hugh3 15y ago
    Perhaps if you expressed yourself better you'd receive an interesting discussion rather than a bunch of downvoting, but as it is I can't figure out what it is you're saying, except that: a) You think you're right about something and everybody else is wrong, and b) You're being belligerent about it.
    - yaix 15y ago
      Where have I been "belligerent" in my initial (downvoted) post? Where did I say then I was "definitely right"?? I stated my view of the issue, especially that I find the view "freedom of speech == always good" rather simplistic. I also explained briefly (only one argument out on many) why I have this view (resposibility). However, answers to my post where only presented in form of downvotes, rather than opinion or insight. I may have gotten somewhat belligerent (I'd rather say frustrated) as a consequense. Understandably I'd say.

derleth 15y ago

Nobody gets popular anywhere talking about responsibilities. That is a basic fact of the human condition. It would be easier to duck the issue by installing dictatorships everywhere and ensuring nobody ever had to think about their responsibilities ever again. You would make many friends if you implemented such a plan. However, those dictatorships would have to be run by humans. That is a limitation of current technology, perhaps, but it is a constraint we have to live with now. Humans in power abuse the power they have; it is impossible to imagine otherwise. That is another fact of the human condition. Asking for downvotes is infantile.

yaix 15y ago
Sorry, but you completely misunderstood (or wanted to misunderstand, and then attack me by implying I wanted to "install dictatorships" everywhere). Wow.
- derleth 15y ago
  You completely misstated your position and need to learn how to express yourself in English.

bediger 15y ago

I agree that freedom comes accompanied with responsibilities, but not the simplistic, "don't rock the boat" type of responsibilities that 6th Grade teachers talk about. Thomas Drake had a responsibility to expose the NSA's massive waste. Elssberg had a responsibility to expose the Pentagon Papers. Assange and company have a responsibility to get the US diplomatic cables out there. Those forsenic economists (http://www.slate.com/id/2203121/ http://www.slate.com/id/2203121/, http://www.iies.su.se/~ekaplan/coups.pdf http://www.iies.su.se/~ekaplan/coups.pdf) have a responsibility to figure out who profited from knowledge of US-backed coups in Central America. Freedom isn't free of cost. We all have a responsibility to spill the beans about immoral actions by secretive organizations.

yaix 15y ago
Agreed. However, we have learned to not abuse freedom for selfish profit, but to maintain and protect it. We learned that freedom is the freedom of speech for others. And to accept conflicting opinions peacefully. This is not a given everywhere, though. Where Social Capital is lacking, freedom can easily become a trigger for a breakdown of personal and public security. Where loyalties are mainly based on family ties or group boundaries, freedom can easily lead to more hate and large scale physical violence. Where education is poor, even the most obvious lie will find people that get angry about it and look for "retaliation", often physical. I am of course not saying that freedom of speech is bad. On the contrary. But is has to be dealed with carefully, and differently in differend societies, taking into account each societies values and development process. Otherwise it may easily (again!) destroy more than it creates. Just think of the "elections" desaster in Africa in the 1990s. A huge (and forseable) tragedy, but it sold well in the West.