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"Better police" does provide more "public safety". This argument has been used to create the system that we have now, caging people you don't like or don't look

"Better police" does provide more "public safety". This argument has been used to create the system that we have now, caging people you don't like or don't look like you; it can never be "reformed" in any meaningful manner. I'd rather have a 20% greater chance of being randomly shot than to continue with this push for a system that cages people for victimless crimes or creates more criminals because Karens' across the country feel that they need to control everyone and everything. Everyone should have the right to defend themselves against any threats against themselves or their neighbors; this is not negotiable.

core-questions 6y ago
> caging people you don't like or don't look like you This is such a toxic, false statement. It denies reality: people are getting jailed for their actions. Due process is still in effect, you understand; and if anything, far fewer people are jailed than probably should be due to overcrowding, high costs, etc. Recidivism rates are very high. Pretending that people are being jailed because of the color of their skin is ridiculous, especially considering that in many cities the jury, lawyers, judge, clerks, etc. are also of the same skin color. People are being jailed for committing crimes; and yes, these crimes are being disproportionately committed by some groups - as statistics have consistently shown for decades. Statements like yours throw the entire justice system under the bus. You essentially call into question the entire appartatus that remains to protect normal folks in the burnt out husks of cities like Baltimore and Detroit. > Karens' across the country feel that they need to control everyone and everything Karen is an anti-white slur. "Karen" expects people to follow the rules and to be pro-social, and gets mad when they do not; this used to simply be good, mutual enforcement behaviour that everyone engaged in to keep people honest and to fight corruption. Stereotyping middleaged white women who simply want the process to be observed as written is offensive, and as sexist/racist as any other single term you could use these days.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- gugagore 6y ago
  > Pretending that people are being jailed because of the color of their skin is ridiculous, especially considering that in many cities the jury, lawyers, judge, clerks, etc. are also of the same skin color. The extremely abbreviated way to make this point is to say "racism is over because Obama, and Kamala, and black faces in high places".
  - core-questions 6y ago
    No, you're stuck at some kind of 2008 view on the topic. The conclusion here is actually "these things are not caused by racism, because you can completely remove white people from the equation and yet the situation only ever gets worse". Social policies combined with demographic realities are the proximate causes here. Continuing to paper over the latter with the former just entrenches the issue generationally.
    - gugagore 6y ago
      What evidence do you have for "these things are not caused by racism, because you can completely remove white people from the equation and yet the situation only ever gets worse"? "see what happens when white people are completely removed from the equation" is not an experiment that is possible to run. So, no, you can't empirically do what you're saying you can do. If you have a thought experiment or an approximation in mind, do share. Here's a thought experiment: every judge, lawyer, jury member, and police officer is now black. If you think that is akin to white people disappearing, then we disagree. e.g. who wrote the laws? who stands to profit the most from incarceration? It's called "systemic" racism for a reason.
- harshreality 6y ago
  Both sides are true. Police need to enforce the laws in economically depressed neighborhoods where crime, gangs, and drugs are much more common. However, police are also abusive in that environment, and the criminal justice system perpetuates economic and social hardship in those neighborhoods by disrupting good home/family environments. Both forces — neighborhood criminality and an overly harsh criminal justice system — work against true social justice. One of the worst consequences is poor psychosocial development in children growing up in that environment (constant stress and fear, broken families, etc). For a somewhat anecdotal view of this sociological phenomenon, see Alice Goffman's book _On the Run_ (she's the daughter of Erving Goffman).
- bobcallme 6y ago
  > Pretending that people are being jailed because of the color of their skin is ridiculous, especially considering that in many cities the jury, lawyers, judge, clerks, etc. are also of the same skin color. That is not the point. People should not have to sit in a cage and then be "judged" by a system that is no longer blind and is stacked against anyone who goes through it. How long do you want to sit in a cage for "something you did not do"? It's no longer about "justice" or "reform", it's about revenge and benefiting those who make it up. > Statements like yours throw the entire justice system under the bus. You essentially call into question the entire [apparatus] that remains to protect normal folks in the burnt out husks of cities like Baltimore and Detroit. The system needs to be thrown out because of how it was created and what it has become. Instead of only being used to "reform" the most reprehensible individuals in society (violent crimes, theft, fraud), it has become a weapon for use against anyone the two parties did not like. First it was the racist Democrats who used it against those who did not look like them and then the fundie Republicans pushed it even further to use it as a tool for the things the church did not like. Many people sitting in jail right now should not be in jail because their "crimes" never affected anyone else or society at large. > Karen is an anti-white slur. "Karen" expects people to follow the rules and to be pro-social Being a cunt is not limited to any one group or ethnicity. "Karen" is applicable to any busybody who should mind their own business and leave people alone.
  - _-david-_ 6y ago
    >"Karen" is applicable to any busybody who should mind their own business and leave people alone. If there was a meme name for an angry woman would you have an issue if it was a predominantly black woman name? There is a sterotype of the angry black woman, so even if you would be fine it would immediately be called racist.
    - kbelder 6y ago
      Absolutely true. A lot of people have a severe blind spot, where they can only see certain types of racism. I'm not that bent out of shape over 'Karen' as a slur, but the hypocrisy is annoying. It's like calling a geeky black guy an Urkel.

core-questions 6y ago

> caging people you don't like or don't look like you This is such a toxic, false statement. It denies reality: people are getting jailed for their actions. Due process is still in effect, you understand; and if anything, far fewer people are jailed than probably should be due to overcrowding, high costs, etc. Recidivism rates are very high. Pretending that people are being jailed because of the color of their skin is ridiculous, especially considering that in many cities the jury, lawyers, judge, clerks, etc. are also of the same skin color. People are being jailed for committing crimes; and yes, these crimes are being disproportionately committed by some groups - as statistics have consistently shown for decades. Statements like yours throw the entire justice system under the bus. You essentially call into question the entire appartatus that remains to protect normal folks in the burnt out husks of cities like Baltimore and Detroit. > Karens' across the country feel that they need to control everyone and everything Karen is an anti-white slur. "Karen" expects people to follow the rules and to be pro-social, and gets mad when they do not; this used to simply be good, mutual enforcement behaviour that everyone engaged in to keep people honest and to fight corruption. Stereotyping middleaged white women who simply want the process to be observed as written is offensive, and as sexist/racist as any other single term you could use these days.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
gugagore 6y ago
> Pretending that people are being jailed because of the color of their skin is ridiculous, especially considering that in many cities the jury, lawyers, judge, clerks, etc. are also of the same skin color. The extremely abbreviated way to make this point is to say "racism is over because Obama, and Kamala, and black faces in high places".
- core-questions 6y ago
  No, you're stuck at some kind of 2008 view on the topic. The conclusion here is actually "these things are not caused by racism, because you can completely remove white people from the equation and yet the situation only ever gets worse". Social policies combined with demographic realities are the proximate causes here. Continuing to paper over the latter with the former just entrenches the issue generationally.
  - gugagore 6y ago
    What evidence do you have for "these things are not caused by racism, because you can completely remove white people from the equation and yet the situation only ever gets worse"? "see what happens when white people are completely removed from the equation" is not an experiment that is possible to run. So, no, you can't empirically do what you're saying you can do. If you have a thought experiment or an approximation in mind, do share. Here's a thought experiment: every judge, lawyer, jury member, and police officer is now black. If you think that is akin to white people disappearing, then we disagree. e.g. who wrote the laws? who stands to profit the most from incarceration? It's called "systemic" racism for a reason.
harshreality 6y ago
Both sides are true. Police need to enforce the laws in economically depressed neighborhoods where crime, gangs, and drugs are much more common. However, police are also abusive in that environment, and the criminal justice system perpetuates economic and social hardship in those neighborhoods by disrupting good home/family environments. Both forces — neighborhood criminality and an overly harsh criminal justice system — work against true social justice. One of the worst consequences is poor psychosocial development in children growing up in that environment (constant stress and fear, broken families, etc). For a somewhat anecdotal view of this sociological phenomenon, see Alice Goffman's book _On the Run_ (she's the daughter of Erving Goffman).
bobcallme 6y ago
> Pretending that people are being jailed because of the color of their skin is ridiculous, especially considering that in many cities the jury, lawyers, judge, clerks, etc. are also of the same skin color. That is not the point. People should not have to sit in a cage and then be "judged" by a system that is no longer blind and is stacked against anyone who goes through it. How long do you want to sit in a cage for "something you did not do"? It's no longer about "justice" or "reform", it's about revenge and benefiting those who make it up. > Statements like yours throw the entire justice system under the bus. You essentially call into question the entire [apparatus] that remains to protect normal folks in the burnt out husks of cities like Baltimore and Detroit. The system needs to be thrown out because of how it was created and what it has become. Instead of only being used to "reform" the most reprehensible individuals in society (violent crimes, theft, fraud), it has become a weapon for use against anyone the two parties did not like. First it was the racist Democrats who used it against those who did not look like them and then the fundie Republicans pushed it even further to use it as a tool for the things the church did not like. Many people sitting in jail right now should not be in jail because their "crimes" never affected anyone else or society at large. > Karen is an anti-white slur. "Karen" expects people to follow the rules and to be pro-social Being a cunt is not limited to any one group or ethnicity. "Karen" is applicable to any busybody who should mind their own business and leave people alone.
- _-david-_ 6y ago
  >"Karen" is applicable to any busybody who should mind their own business and leave people alone. If there was a meme name for an angry woman would you have an issue if it was a predominantly black woman name? There is a sterotype of the angry black woman, so even if you would be fine it would immediately be called racist.
  - kbelder 6y ago
    Absolutely true. A lot of people have a severe blind spot, where they can only see certain types of racism. I'm not that bent out of shape over 'Karen' as a slur, but the hypocrisy is annoying. It's like calling a geeky black guy an Urkel.