7 ms·

Yeah, I get it. It is a necessary change just so you take this of the table and not deal with the sporadic complaints that would come. Keeping the 'master' or '

Yeah, I get it. It is a necessary change just so you take this of the table and not deal with the sporadic complaints that would come. Keeping the 'master' or 'master-slave' (in context of HA) terms just isn't worth potentially offending someone, or losing a sale, or getting bad press. We changed our verbage a couple years in our product as well just for that reason (Master-Slave to Primary-Secondary). The previous company I worked at (circa 2006) did the same as well after a complaint, so this nomenclature change was happening for a few years now. Meh, whatever. It would be nice if that was the end of it, but it feels like we're now just looking for things to be offended by. For example, I have to admit that the terms 'whitelist'/'blacklist' being labeled as not 'inclusive' caught me by surprise because my brain didn't even make that connection ... at all. I wish we, the global community, didn't all have to pay for America's internal cultural hangups.

ec109685 6y ago
The terms whitelist and blacklist aren’t very precise. The better terms allow list, deny list or something that more concretely describes the auth model are actually helpful.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  Sure. The existing terms are a little quirky and you can make the argument that 'allow' and 'deny' lists make more sense ... but come on man, why be obtuse? You know that's not why these terms are being changed.
- yongjik 6y ago
  The terms "whitelist/blacklist" are no less precise than stack, heap, queue, memory, signal, object, class, instance, process, and so on. They acquired precise meaning not by etymology but by usage. It's silly to argue "Oh you didn't want these terms anyway: they're not precise enough." Well, the whole discussion is made of silly hills not worth dying on, so to speak, so maybe it's par for the course ...
- snicker7 6y ago
  In 2022: the terms "allowlist" and "denylist" evoke the realization that marginalized groups where and are DENIED privileges afforded to others. You are now cancelled.
somedude895 6y ago
> I wish we, the global community, didn't all have to pay for America's internal cultural hangups. Can't wait for Disney to remove any references to the "Dark Side" in Star Wars, Harry Potter to rename the "Dark Arts" into the "Bad Arts" and Lord of the Rings' "Black Riders" to become the "Evil Horsemen." Nobody ever used to connect the term "blacklist" to race. But common sense doesn't seem to play a role anymore.
- diomedes 6y ago
  > But common sense doesn't seem to play a role anymore. If it were just a common sense problem the damage could be reverted in it's due time. It is about hierarchy, if you put weak people in power they'll game the system and push whatever the mob wants, it won't stop with random tech lingo.
- ondrek 6y ago
  Seeing black / whitelists discussions I always wonder, if white color is racist also by containg all wavelengths, while black suffers by absencing visible light.
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    >if white color is racist also by containg all wavelengths, while black suffers by absencing visible light. This definition of white/black colors is context dependent. In some contexts white is defined as a combination of colors, and black is absence of colors. In some contexts (e.g. art) white is defined as absence of colors, and black is a combination of colors.
    - david-gpu 6y ago
      It is not a matter of context or definitions. It's a matter of the underlying physical process. Typical computer displays generate colors by adding light of different wavelengths. However, paint pigments generate colors by absorbing light of different wavelengths. Whether a system emits light directly, like a computer screen, or reflects incoming light, like a painted canvas, the perception of color is still determined by the wavelengths of the photons reaching the observer.
noxer 6y ago
Sounds like justification for capitulating to the woke nonsense and cancel culture to me. >....feels like we're now just looking for things to be offended by Exactly, no one should have ever listen to this nonsense. There is no end goal here being offended is the goal. Just imagine the millions of man-hours* of non-productive work this will cause over the next decades. *nothing here lol
- tasogare 6y ago
  > There is no end goal here being offended is the goal. Nop, it’s a mean. Being perceived as a victim is very bankable these days, so the craze will continue with more people being offended and asking compensations (often monetary) for it.
  - noxer 6y ago
    The people who are offended mostly aren't even the people who would get any kind of compensation. They are offended on behalf of others.
jlizzle30 6y ago
The natural conclusion of the black/whitelist argument is renaming the colors.
raydev 6y ago
That’s a lot of words to say “this is a good change and nothing has been lost.” Incredible that this post has almost 200 comments.
- fuzxi 6y ago
  He didn't say it's a good change. He said it's a CYA move that's become necessary.
- erik_seaberg 6y ago
  Time has been lost. When management required this change, it broke some test and deploy automation, and some git non-experts screwed up their clones and needed help.
  - rvnx 6y ago
    and there may be security issues down the line due to non-authorized users claiming ownership of "master" branches. Time is the most precious thing you have in life, you cannot get it back.
devnull255 6y ago
If you dig a little deeper you might find your brain does make that kind of connection subconsciously. This article gives a nice introduction into the work of cognitive linguists George Lakoff and Mark Johnson. https://theconversation.com/how-did-white-become-a-metaphor-for-all-things-good-140674 https://theconversation.com/how-did-white-become-a-metaphor-.... The language constructs we use embed positive and negative associations with the words used to describe black or white things, low or high concepts. But I have to admit my bewilderment with the default branch name change too. I've seen older uses of the word master to mean original source of truth or master of students -- or padawan. I believe it's better to live in a time where we think more seriously about the words we choose to use than in one we don't. Language is fluid and always changing anyway.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >If you dig a little deeper you might find your brain does make that kind of connection subconsciously. I'm sure the brain makes all kinds of connections subconsciously. The specific claim though is that your brain makes racist connections (where 'racist' is broadly defined by certain kinds of social 'scientists', where the academic field of 'social science' in general is sloppy and non-rigorous), with the corollary being that you then perform racist actions. Those propositions are wholly unproven and on the surface strike me as pseudo-science. I have also yet to see any evidence that that cultural connotations behind the colors 'white' and 'black' (like 'white is pure' and 'black is evil') actually even maps to people or racist behaviour. Do people see 'dark eyes' or 'black hair' as evil? First I hear of that. And I'm not even sure if the white/black connotations are cultural at all. I suspect that they come from something deeper, namely, nighttime was/is dangerous for our species. As I child, I was afraid of the dark and I can guarantee it had nothing to do with race or anything from culture. Where did I learn that?
- dvdgsng 6y ago
  > your brain does make that kind of connection subconsciously This should work both ways then. So loving black tea, black humor, Black Mirror, Black Swan and the color black in general would make me like "black people" more because my brain does the wiring subconsciously when it reads the term "black"? Nope. Don't think so. But maybe making everything about race is, well, racist?
TechnoTimeStop 6y ago
It's not America. America is the only truly free country. Only 15 counties in the world allow you to even own land if you're not from a specific religious group, ethnicity, or born in the country. And guess what they're all western democracies.
- noodlesUK 6y ago
  What? Citation needed. Unless you’re talking about citizenship/permanent residence being a prerequisite to owning land, there’s 27 countries in the EU alone that I think serve as counterexamples...
  - taylodl 6y ago
    The US doesn't require citizenship in order to own land. The US also has public lands where anyone is able to hunt, provided they have a license. In most states a license requires paying a nominal fee and maybe taking a 1-2 day hunter education course.
scrollaway 6y ago
I don't mind so much when the renames make sense or are more comprehensible… master to primary for DBs, master to main for git. Indeed whitelist/blacklist is just ridiculous overreach, what can you do. But Github went way too far by aggressively pushing devs to rename their own local master branches to main. This caught me by surprise and I almost accidentally renamed the branch of one of my previous clients. https://twitter.com/Adys/status/1354468440753508355 https://twitter.com/Adys/status/1354468440753508355 Really gross.
- easton 6y ago
  Does it still do this if you don’t have your default branch set to main? I had to specifically go and set that on a settings page somewhere.
martin8412 6y ago
This will absolutely cost customers.. The rest of the world is getting fed up with the US. Most of the world is not as deeply racist and the US... Master is not associated with anything negative here.
- sacomo 6y ago
  "Whatever you do, don't use gitlab. They changed their default git branch to 'main'."
  - Proven 6y ago
    Those who have template scripts, docs and KB articles that use master now have to notify everyone to fix that crap. It's not a free change that's for sure. To be fair I'd never use Gitlab anyway so their chances to get me to use their service didn't drop.
enigma20 6y ago
What to expect, if we live in the world were intelligence is becoming rare, and people can't read the context, and get insulted by anything. More and more have such delicate souls, poor things.

ec109685 6y ago

The terms whitelist and blacklist aren’t very precise. The better terms allow list, deny list or something that more concretely describes the auth model are actually helpful.

macspoofing 6y ago
Sure. The existing terms are a little quirky and you can make the argument that 'allow' and 'deny' lists make more sense ... but come on man, why be obtuse? You know that's not why these terms are being changed.
yongjik 6y ago
The terms "whitelist/blacklist" are no less precise than stack, heap, queue, memory, signal, object, class, instance, process, and so on. They acquired precise meaning not by etymology but by usage. It's silly to argue "Oh you didn't want these terms anyway: they're not precise enough." Well, the whole discussion is made of silly hills not worth dying on, so to speak, so maybe it's par for the course ...
snicker7 6y ago
In 2022: the terms "allowlist" and "denylist" evoke the realization that marginalized groups where and are DENIED privileges afforded to others. You are now cancelled.

somedude895 6y ago

> I wish we, the global community, didn't all have to pay for America's internal cultural hangups. Can't wait for Disney to remove any references to the "Dark Side" in Star Wars, Harry Potter to rename the "Dark Arts" into the "Bad Arts" and Lord of the Rings' "Black Riders" to become the "Evil Horsemen." Nobody ever used to connect the term "blacklist" to race. But common sense doesn't seem to play a role anymore.

diomedes 6y ago
> But common sense doesn't seem to play a role anymore. If it were just a common sense problem the damage could be reverted in it's due time. It is about hierarchy, if you put weak people in power they'll game the system and push whatever the mob wants, it won't stop with random tech lingo.
ondrek 6y ago
Seeing black / whitelists discussions I always wonder, if white color is racist also by containg all wavelengths, while black suffers by absencing visible light.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >if white color is racist also by containg all wavelengths, while black suffers by absencing visible light. This definition of white/black colors is context dependent. In some contexts white is defined as a combination of colors, and black is absence of colors. In some contexts (e.g. art) white is defined as absence of colors, and black is a combination of colors.
  - david-gpu 6y ago
    It is not a matter of context or definitions. It's a matter of the underlying physical process. Typical computer displays generate colors by adding light of different wavelengths. However, paint pigments generate colors by absorbing light of different wavelengths. Whether a system emits light directly, like a computer screen, or reflects incoming light, like a painted canvas, the perception of color is still determined by the wavelengths of the photons reaching the observer.

noxer 6y ago

Sounds like justification for capitulating to the woke nonsense and cancel culture to me. >....feels like we're now just looking for things to be offended by Exactly, no one should have ever listen to this nonsense. There is no end goal here being offended is the goal. Just imagine the millions of man-hours* of non-productive work this will cause over the next decades. *nothing here lol

tasogare 6y ago
> There is no end goal here being offended is the goal. Nop, it’s a mean. Being perceived as a victim is very bankable these days, so the craze will continue with more people being offended and asking compensations (often monetary) for it.
- noxer 6y ago
  The people who are offended mostly aren't even the people who would get any kind of compensation. They are offended on behalf of others.

jlizzle30 6y ago

The natural conclusion of the black/whitelist argument is renaming the colors.

raydev 6y ago

That’s a lot of words to say “this is a good change and nothing has been lost.” Incredible that this post has almost 200 comments.

fuzxi 6y ago
He didn't say it's a good change. He said it's a CYA move that's become necessary.
erik_seaberg 6y ago
Time has been lost. When management required this change, it broke some test and deploy automation, and some git non-experts screwed up their clones and needed help.
- rvnx 6y ago
  and there may be security issues down the line due to non-authorized users claiming ownership of "master" branches. Time is the most precious thing you have in life, you cannot get it back.

devnull255 6y ago

If you dig a little deeper you might find your brain does make that kind of connection subconsciously. This article gives a nice introduction into the work of cognitive linguists George Lakoff and Mark Johnson. https://theconversation.com/how-did-white-become-a-metaphor-for-all-things-good-140674 https://theconversation.com/how-did-white-become-a-metaphor-.... The language constructs we use embed positive and negative associations with the words used to describe black or white things, low or high concepts. But I have to admit my bewilderment with the default branch name change too. I've seen older uses of the word master to mean original source of truth or master of students -- or padawan. I believe it's better to live in a time where we think more seriously about the words we choose to use than in one we don't. Language is fluid and always changing anyway.

macspoofing 6y ago
>If you dig a little deeper you might find your brain does make that kind of connection subconsciously. I'm sure the brain makes all kinds of connections subconsciously. The specific claim though is that your brain makes racist connections (where 'racist' is broadly defined by certain kinds of social 'scientists', where the academic field of 'social science' in general is sloppy and non-rigorous), with the corollary being that you then perform racist actions. Those propositions are wholly unproven and on the surface strike me as pseudo-science. I have also yet to see any evidence that that cultural connotations behind the colors 'white' and 'black' (like 'white is pure' and 'black is evil') actually even maps to people or racist behaviour. Do people see 'dark eyes' or 'black hair' as evil? First I hear of that. And I'm not even sure if the white/black connotations are cultural at all. I suspect that they come from something deeper, namely, nighttime was/is dangerous for our species. As I child, I was afraid of the dark and I can guarantee it had nothing to do with race or anything from culture. Where did I learn that?
dvdgsng 6y ago
> your brain does make that kind of connection subconsciously This should work both ways then. So loving black tea, black humor, Black Mirror, Black Swan and the color black in general would make me like "black people" more because my brain does the wiring subconsciously when it reads the term "black"? Nope. Don't think so. But maybe making everything about race is, well, racist?

TechnoTimeStop 6y ago

It's not America. America is the only truly free country. Only 15 counties in the world allow you to even own land if you're not from a specific religious group, ethnicity, or born in the country. And guess what they're all western democracies.

noodlesUK 6y ago
What? Citation needed. Unless you’re talking about citizenship/permanent residence being a prerequisite to owning land, there’s 27 countries in the EU alone that I think serve as counterexamples...
- taylodl 6y ago
  The US doesn't require citizenship in order to own land. The US also has public lands where anyone is able to hunt, provided they have a license. In most states a license requires paying a nominal fee and maybe taking a 1-2 day hunter education course.

scrollaway 6y ago

I don't mind so much when the renames make sense or are more comprehensible… master to primary for DBs, master to main for git. Indeed whitelist/blacklist is just ridiculous overreach, what can you do. But Github went way too far by aggressively pushing devs to rename their own local master branches to main. This caught me by surprise and I almost accidentally renamed the branch of one of my previous clients. https://twitter.com/Adys/status/1354468440753508355 https://twitter.com/Adys/status/1354468440753508355 Really gross.

easton 6y ago
Does it still do this if you don’t have your default branch set to main? I had to specifically go and set that on a settings page somewhere.

martin8412 6y ago

This will absolutely cost customers.. The rest of the world is getting fed up with the US. Most of the world is not as deeply racist and the US... Master is not associated with anything negative here.

sacomo 6y ago
"Whatever you do, don't use gitlab. They changed their default git branch to 'main'."
- Proven 6y ago
  Those who have template scripts, docs and KB articles that use master now have to notify everyone to fix that crap. It's not a free change that's for sure. To be fair I'd never use Gitlab anyway so their chances to get me to use their service didn't drop.

enigma20 6y ago

What to expect, if we live in the world were intelligence is becoming rare, and people can't read the context, and get insulted by anything. More and more have such delicate souls, poor things.