3 ms·

How is it more dignified to have another human decide to kill you? It seems just as undignified to have a human with agency disregard your well being in a way w

How is it more dignified to have another human decide to kill you? It seems just as undignified to have a human with agency disregard your well being in a way which is indistinguishable from an automated killing.

xjabskns 6y ago
Because I can kill you back. It is said that Al Saladin, upon learning that Richard Lionheart’s horse had died in battle had the best horse in his own stalls sent to his opponent as a gift. It would appear that Saladin held King Richard in high esteem (he was brutal to those he did not) Compare that behavior with our drones and F-16 raining death from the safety of miles of distance, and you see how pusillanimous we’ve become. Im sure NPR will wax poetically about drone operator’s PTSD, but it’s not PTSD what they suffer from for there was no trauma. It’s shame, guilt and disgust. In the Christian West we held Saladin in the highest esteem for the way he conducted himself in war. We sought to emulate him, added his behavior to our codes of chivalry. Now, there is no doubt in my mind that future generations will spit on the memory of our generals loosing wars from the safety of telework.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > it’s not PTSD what they suffer from for there was no trauma. It’s shame, guilt and disgust. Given PTSD manifests in people who have never killed and is not restricted to soldiers (e.g. victims of sexual assault and traffic accidents [1]), this claim is unsubstantiated. > we held Saladin in the highest esteem for the way he conducted himself in war You’re transporting values from a zero-growth world, where war was practically the only route to advancement, to a positive-growth one. War was honourable when it was necessary. It is no longer necessary. The era of celebrating our enemies has long passed. (That is why everything is now framed in terms of defense.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disorder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disord...
  - xjabskns 6y ago
    “ Given PTSD manifests in people who have never killed and is not restricted to soldiers” PTSD is the last of a long list of euphemisms used to describe shell shock. To make war more palpable. Eventually the shrinks added all the bad life experiences as causes of PTSD. To dilute the unique horror of war.[1] Therefore, today a guy who sees his best friend blow up next to him from landmine, or a solder who witnesses one of our “friend and ally” rape a boy [2] has the same diagnosis as someone who got into a car accident. Even the fact that PTSD is not a word but an acronym oozes with our degeneracy and America’s military bureaucracy in particular. “You’re transporting values from a zero-growth world, where war was practically the only route to advancement, to a positive-growth one.” Or maybe our forefathers weren’t as obsessed with careerism and advancement as we are today? Never mind that those who waged war were born into the highest class so there was little to advance (King Richard Lionheart was King!) Anyway, we get to pass on higher values because we’re rich? So values are ephemeral not universal? If values are not universal I’ll take the gallantry of the crusaders who mourned their valiant enemies over the moral emptiness of our generals. (And what do these generals have to show for their moral laxity? A long string of defeat. These generals are, as Trump pointed out, losers) Nor does it appear to be true that we became dishonorable when we became a growth society. There are a great many examples of men acting with honor in the world wars, and we certainly were a growth obsessed industrialized society then! [3] And the whole argument that war was necessary then, it isn’t now is just not true. War was as necessary then as it is today. Which is to say not much. Read the old philosophers, Church fathers, the Bhagavad Gita etc, the Chinese sages, and the futility of war is expressed unambiguously. How many ancient texts throughout all Eurasian cultures caution the ruler against war? No, it is us that are dishonorable, not the age we live in. The Persians returned Leonidas’ body for burial [4]. Obama dumped Bin Laden’s body overboard and lied that he gave him a Muslim burial. By not treating our brothers in arms with dignity and honor we have become degenerates. [1] War is uniquely horrible because, when conducted dishonorably it embraces all other horrors. [2] Afghanistan [3] my favorite story is of a German pilot in WW2 who didn’t finish off a plane that he had crippled. Instead he escorted it back to the channel. The two pilots eventually met after the war and the German said that that action had saved his humanity. [4] Xerxes was known for his anger and he uncharacteristically (for the Persians) kept the body to deny it burial. 40 years later, the Persians restored their honor and returned it.

xjabskns 6y ago

Because I can kill you back. It is said that Al Saladin, upon learning that Richard Lionheart’s horse had died in battle had the best horse in his own stalls sent to his opponent as a gift. It would appear that Saladin held King Richard in high esteem (he was brutal to those he did not) Compare that behavior with our drones and F-16 raining death from the safety of miles of distance, and you see how pusillanimous we’ve become. Im sure NPR will wax poetically about drone operator’s PTSD, but it’s not PTSD what they suffer from for there was no trauma. It’s shame, guilt and disgust. In the Christian West we held Saladin in the highest esteem for the way he conducted himself in war. We sought to emulate him, added his behavior to our codes of chivalry. Now, there is no doubt in my mind that future generations will spit on the memory of our generals loosing wars from the safety of telework.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> it’s not PTSD what they suffer from for there was no trauma. It’s shame, guilt and disgust. Given PTSD manifests in people who have never killed and is not restricted to soldiers (e.g. victims of sexual assault and traffic accidents [1]), this claim is unsubstantiated. > we held Saladin in the highest esteem for the way he conducted himself in war You’re transporting values from a zero-growth world, where war was practically the only route to advancement, to a positive-growth one. War was honourable when it was necessary. It is no longer necessary. The era of celebrating our enemies has long passed. (That is why everything is now framed in terms of defense.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disorder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disord...
- xjabskns 6y ago
  “ Given PTSD manifests in people who have never killed and is not restricted to soldiers” PTSD is the last of a long list of euphemisms used to describe shell shock. To make war more palpable. Eventually the shrinks added all the bad life experiences as causes of PTSD. To dilute the unique horror of war.[1] Therefore, today a guy who sees his best friend blow up next to him from landmine, or a solder who witnesses one of our “friend and ally” rape a boy [2] has the same diagnosis as someone who got into a car accident. Even the fact that PTSD is not a word but an acronym oozes with our degeneracy and America’s military bureaucracy in particular. “You’re transporting values from a zero-growth world, where war was practically the only route to advancement, to a positive-growth one.” Or maybe our forefathers weren’t as obsessed with careerism and advancement as we are today? Never mind that those who waged war were born into the highest class so there was little to advance (King Richard Lionheart was King!) Anyway, we get to pass on higher values because we’re rich? So values are ephemeral not universal? If values are not universal I’ll take the gallantry of the crusaders who mourned their valiant enemies over the moral emptiness of our generals. (And what do these generals have to show for their moral laxity? A long string of defeat. These generals are, as Trump pointed out, losers) Nor does it appear to be true that we became dishonorable when we became a growth society. There are a great many examples of men acting with honor in the world wars, and we certainly were a growth obsessed industrialized society then! [3] And the whole argument that war was necessary then, it isn’t now is just not true. War was as necessary then as it is today. Which is to say not much. Read the old philosophers, Church fathers, the Bhagavad Gita etc, the Chinese sages, and the futility of war is expressed unambiguously. How many ancient texts throughout all Eurasian cultures caution the ruler against war? No, it is us that are dishonorable, not the age we live in. The Persians returned Leonidas’ body for burial [4]. Obama dumped Bin Laden’s body overboard and lied that he gave him a Muslim burial. By not treating our brothers in arms with dignity and honor we have become degenerates. [1] War is uniquely horrible because, when conducted dishonorably it embraces all other horrors. [2] Afghanistan [3] my favorite story is of a German pilot in WW2 who didn’t finish off a plane that he had crippled. Instead he escorted it back to the channel. The two pilots eventually met after the war and the German said that that action had saved his humanity. [4] Xerxes was known for his anger and he uncharacteristically (for the Persians) kept the body to deny it burial. 40 years later, the Persians restored their honor and returned it.