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It amazes that that this is still considered amazing. Apple is the gatekeeper of software running on the app store, always has been, probably always will be (mo

by simias 6y ago

It amazes that that this is still considered amazing. Apple is the gatekeeper of software running on the app store, always has been, probably always will be (modulo a successful anti-trust campaign I suppose). If you want to be able to decide what runs on your device, don't get an iphone. That's why I don't own one myself. If on the other hand you want the peace of mind of letting Apple gatekeep the software you can use on your device, then it makes perfect sense. As someone who's spent more hours than I really care to count removing all sorts of crapware, browser extensions and website notifications from friends and family's PCs, I definitely see where Apple is coming from here. Enforcing naming conventions so that apps do what they say and say what they do doesn't strike me as particularly draconian or unexpected in this context. It's not a bug, it's a feature, and if that's a problem for you then don't buy iphones.

ineedasername 6y ago
Enforcing naming conventions so that apps do what they say and say what they do doesn't strike me as particularly draconian or unexpected in this context. Uber, Tinder, Twitter, and countless others would dispute the "Apple just want's accurate app name descriptions" theory. And in this case "Crabhouse" is a highly accurate description, or at least more so than many others.
- krisgenre 6y ago
  Don't forget 'Apple' :)
- simias 6y ago
  I agree that it's very arbitrary, but the justification that it could set a precedent by allowing effectively "copycat" application using spelling to mislead users holds some water IMO. It's especially problematic when application names are translated in other scripts and languages, which is the case here. Imagine if a south african made a "facebok" app to share pictures of goats (bok meaning goat in afrikaans), I'm sure it would be rejected on the same grounds. But I agree that the decision is very arbitrary and it can be frustrating if you're on the receiving end, but such is life on Apple's walled garden. Like it or leave it.
  - michaelt 6y ago
    Given that, when I search for 'clubhouse' or 'slack' or 'google maps' in the app store, the first result is an ad for a competitor, I'm not sure Apple gives a shit about user confusion?
    - LordDragonfang 6y ago
      As usual, Apple's principals are steadfast only as long as they can't find a way to violate them and extract more value from their customer.
newbie578 6y ago
It amazes me that people can still be so obtuse and keep parroting how you just don’t need to get an iPhone. In a market where you are stuck between two choices, it isn’t so easy to just cut one. Apple’s day of reckoning is coming closer, I believed the EU will rein them in and I can’t wait to see people on HN defend them then.
- simias 6y ago
  I really don't care to defend Apple in particular, I think the only Apple product I've ever owned was an old school hard-drive ipod over a decade ago. It's just that Apple has always been pretty clear that it's going to push whatever arbitrary rules it sees fit to ensure a certain level of quality on its platform and that's par for the course. I agree that de-facto having to choose between Android on one hand and iphones on the other is not ideal and I'd like more competition in this space, but at least there is an alternative and there are plenty of Android smartphones that can be rooted to give you full access if you so desire. It's not ideal, but I really find it hard to find a flaw in Apple's approach to these things if their objective is to create a somewhat "premium" curated platform.
- HunterWare 6y ago
  The problem with that logic is that it doesn’t address how this situation came to be. Apple has been consistent about their product vision since basically day one, and on day one they were the underdog... a drop in the pond. The thing is that over YEARS the market (people) consistently voted with their wallets to validate this vision. That’s why they are what they are now. This has two implications: 1) The reason it’s happening is due to long term choice in the market, i.e. this ecosystem is filling a need that whiners are ignoring, and 2) It ignores the fact that if your stated hopes actually came to pass, someone else would just execute on good hardware with a walled garden (with the resulting more consistent and reliable experience) and become popular AGAIN... after all, that’s what just happened this time. People will answer this post saying “that’s not true, you can totally have the iOS experience with side-loading/whatever”. Those people also likely believe that the “right communism” just hasn’t been tried yet. If one could actually do this then likely someone would have tried it and succeeded already. Another way to realize that is to understand you are just describing Android, and a perfectly valid existing choice (actually, several choices in a family). Additionally, those people are ignoring the fact that the security/convenience/consistency trade-offs made in any ecosystem do have consequences (positive and negative from varying perspectives). Which leads us back to the parent: If one wants a different trade-off (which is totally valid and I have happily owned and developed for both systems in the past) then pick a different ecosystem and buy into it. MY personal pie in the sky wish is that people would quit pissing on other people who don’t want to be forced to make THEIR choice. Please take your choices and stop advocating to take MINE away.
8ytecoder 6y ago
As someone who has gone through multiple clean installs back in the day, I finally caved in and switched to an iPhone a few summers ago. I didn’t want to deal with the crapware and security holes that won’t be patched after merely two years. I still have an old HTC One that I have managed to install a more recent OS on. It’s unbearably slow. My mom’s SE from around the time still works great in comparison.
- random5634 6y ago
  This - my parents phones keep getting updates after purchase. They never updated their cheap android (or maybe updates lagged badly and there were none). People are our paying EXTRA for Apple gate keeping pretty happily
jayd16 6y ago
This is silly. They could still keep the store strict and let you side load apps like on Android or the Mac. We would all lose nothing and only gain.
- tadfisher 6y ago
  I was trying to distribute a macOS app to a friend to test it out. The friend said their Mac told them the app was damaged and they should move it to the Trash. Apparently I have to get a Developer account, obtain a Developer ID certificate, sign every build with this certificate, and upload the build to Apple to have them "notarize" the signature. The alternative is to teach my friend how to run obscure commands in the Terminal or disable this "Gatekeeper" (yes, such an unironic name) feature altogether, which requires some scary steps such as disabling SIP. I could be wrong about that last part, but I don't own a Mac so I'm more inclined to just not build software for it.
  - my123 6y ago
    System Preferences -> Security and Privacy. You’ll find an override toggle there. You can also use Right Click -> Open when launching the app. And no, you don’t need to disable SIP to disable Gatekeeper which can be done through sudo spctl —-master-disable.
    - tadfisher 6y ago
      Right-click + Open resulted in the same error dialog; I presume this has something to do with Big Sur. The option to allow apps from "Anywhere" is also not available in the preferences pane.
      - my123 6y ago
        Right-click + Open has to be done twice to work. The anywhere option is hidden by default, use sudo spctl —-master-disable from Terminal instead, which flips Gatekeeper settings to Anywhere. Edit: there's also this path: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/415713/verify-code-signature-of-a-package-installer/415717#415717 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/415713/verify-code... which doesn't seem to activate Gatekeeper as part of the install process.
spideymans 6y ago
>If you want to be able to decide what runs on your device, don't get an iphone. That's why I don't own one myself. If on the other hand you want the peace of mind of letting Apple gatekeep the software you can use on your device, then it makes perfect sense. To further your point, people forget that Android devices often (if not usually) come preinstalled with OEM and carrier app stores, in addition to the Google Play Store. The Samsung App Store being the most prominent example. Carriers love to control the experience (more revenue potential), and they were the original mobile app distribution platforms. If there was such a demand for alternative app stores, the carries would aggressively push their own alternate app stores onto consumers.

by simias 6y ago

ineedasername 6y ago

Enforcing naming conventions so that apps do what they say and say what they do doesn't strike me as particularly draconian or unexpected in this context. Uber, Tinder, Twitter, and countless others would dispute the "Apple just want's accurate app name descriptions" theory. And in this case "Crabhouse" is a highly accurate description, or at least more so than many others.

krisgenre 6y ago
Don't forget 'Apple' :)
simias 6y ago
I agree that it's very arbitrary, but the justification that it could set a precedent by allowing effectively "copycat" application using spelling to mislead users holds some water IMO. It's especially problematic when application names are translated in other scripts and languages, which is the case here. Imagine if a south african made a "facebok" app to share pictures of goats (bok meaning goat in afrikaans), I'm sure it would be rejected on the same grounds. But I agree that the decision is very arbitrary and it can be frustrating if you're on the receiving end, but such is life on Apple's walled garden. Like it or leave it.
- michaelt 6y ago
  Given that, when I search for 'clubhouse' or 'slack' or 'google maps' in the app store, the first result is an ad for a competitor, I'm not sure Apple gives a shit about user confusion?
  - LordDragonfang 6y ago
    As usual, Apple's principals are steadfast only as long as they can't find a way to violate them and extract more value from their customer.

newbie578 6y ago

It amazes me that people can still be so obtuse and keep parroting how you just don’t need to get an iPhone. In a market where you are stuck between two choices, it isn’t so easy to just cut one. Apple’s day of reckoning is coming closer, I believed the EU will rein them in and I can’t wait to see people on HN defend them then.

simias 6y ago
I really don't care to defend Apple in particular, I think the only Apple product I've ever owned was an old school hard-drive ipod over a decade ago. It's just that Apple has always been pretty clear that it's going to push whatever arbitrary rules it sees fit to ensure a certain level of quality on its platform and that's par for the course. I agree that de-facto having to choose between Android on one hand and iphones on the other is not ideal and I'd like more competition in this space, but at least there is an alternative and there are plenty of Android smartphones that can be rooted to give you full access if you so desire. It's not ideal, but I really find it hard to find a flaw in Apple's approach to these things if their objective is to create a somewhat "premium" curated platform.
HunterWare 6y ago
The problem with that logic is that it doesn’t address how this situation came to be. Apple has been consistent about their product vision since basically day one, and on day one they were the underdog... a drop in the pond. The thing is that over YEARS the market (people) consistently voted with their wallets to validate this vision. That’s why they are what they are now. This has two implications: 1) The reason it’s happening is due to long term choice in the market, i.e. this ecosystem is filling a need that whiners are ignoring, and 2) It ignores the fact that if your stated hopes actually came to pass, someone else would just execute on good hardware with a walled garden (with the resulting more consistent and reliable experience) and become popular AGAIN... after all, that’s what just happened this time. People will answer this post saying “that’s not true, you can totally have the iOS experience with side-loading/whatever”. Those people also likely believe that the “right communism” just hasn’t been tried yet. If one could actually do this then likely someone would have tried it and succeeded already. Another way to realize that is to understand you are just describing Android, and a perfectly valid existing choice (actually, several choices in a family). Additionally, those people are ignoring the fact that the security/convenience/consistency trade-offs made in any ecosystem do have consequences (positive and negative from varying perspectives). Which leads us back to the parent: If one wants a different trade-off (which is totally valid and I have happily owned and developed for both systems in the past) then pick a different ecosystem and buy into it. MY personal pie in the sky wish is that people would quit pissing on other people who don’t want to be forced to make THEIR choice. Please take your choices and stop advocating to take MINE away.

8ytecoder 6y ago

As someone who has gone through multiple clean installs back in the day, I finally caved in and switched to an iPhone a few summers ago. I didn’t want to deal with the crapware and security holes that won’t be patched after merely two years. I still have an old HTC One that I have managed to install a more recent OS on. It’s unbearably slow. My mom’s SE from around the time still works great in comparison.

random5634 6y ago
This - my parents phones keep getting updates after purchase. They never updated their cheap android (or maybe updates lagged badly and there were none). People are our paying EXTRA for Apple gate keeping pretty happily

jayd16 6y ago

This is silly. They could still keep the store strict and let you side load apps like on Android or the Mac. We would all lose nothing and only gain.

tadfisher 6y ago
I was trying to distribute a macOS app to a friend to test it out. The friend said their Mac told them the app was damaged and they should move it to the Trash. Apparently I have to get a Developer account, obtain a Developer ID certificate, sign every build with this certificate, and upload the build to Apple to have them "notarize" the signature. The alternative is to teach my friend how to run obscure commands in the Terminal or disable this "Gatekeeper" (yes, such an unironic name) feature altogether, which requires some scary steps such as disabling SIP. I could be wrong about that last part, but I don't own a Mac so I'm more inclined to just not build software for it.
- my123 6y ago
  System Preferences -> Security and Privacy. You’ll find an override toggle there. You can also use Right Click -> Open when launching the app. And no, you don’t need to disable SIP to disable Gatekeeper which can be done through sudo spctl —-master-disable.
  - tadfisher 6y ago
    Right-click + Open resulted in the same error dialog; I presume this has something to do with Big Sur. The option to allow apps from "Anywhere" is also not available in the preferences pane.
    - my123 6y ago
      Right-click + Open has to be done twice to work. The anywhere option is hidden by default, use sudo spctl —-master-disable from Terminal instead, which flips Gatekeeper settings to Anywhere. Edit: there's also this path: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/415713/verify-code-signature-of-a-package-installer/415717#415717 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/415713/verify-code... which doesn't seem to activate Gatekeeper as part of the install process.

spideymans 6y ago

>If you want to be able to decide what runs on your device, don't get an iphone. That's why I don't own one myself. If on the other hand you want the peace of mind of letting Apple gatekeep the software you can use on your device, then it makes perfect sense. To further your point, people forget that Android devices often (if not usually) come preinstalled with OEM and carrier app stores, in addition to the Google Play Store. The Samsung App Store being the most prominent example. Carriers love to control the experience (more revenue potential), and they were the original mobile app distribution platforms. If there was such a demand for alternative app stores, the carries would aggressively push their own alternate app stores onto consumers.