5 ms·

I think disability or skin-color are bad examples, religion is a better one. You can't change whether you're missing a leg (well... yet) and you can't change th

I think disability or skin-color are bad examples, religion is a better one. You can't change whether you're missing a leg (well... yet) and you can't change the color of your skin. You can (though probably not really actively) change your political convictions the same way you can change your religious beliefs.

inglor_cz 6y ago
I wonder what happens once you can get a new leg and refuse to do so. Will the protections still apply? This is not a morally clear situation; some people may refuse a cloned leg in the future because the price tag will be too high, others for religious reasons etc.
- hntrader 6y ago
  It's a false dichotomy to begin with. If political belief is caused by personality traits (e.g. orderliness) and brain structure (e.g. amygdala size), is it really a choice?
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    True. I do not really feel to have much latitude in what I believe. I only have choice to pretend X or Y.
    - TameAntelope 6y ago
      If you're interested in improving your ability to grow and change based on feedback, that is a skill that can be worked on.
      - hntrader 6y ago
        A conservative can shrink their amygdala in response to verbal feedback? A conservative can become low-orderliness when they've been high-orderliness since childhood? This is gay-conversion therapy territory.
        TameAntelope 6y ago
        I am honestly struggling to come up with a constructive response to, "People's beliefs are determined by biological factors at birth." What you seem to have said here is, on its face, so obviously wrong, it's hard to take seriously. I mean no disrespect, I just don't know how to continue engaging with you.
        hntrader 6y ago
        Political beliefs are caused by brain structure and personality traits, in an interaction with environment/identity/self-interest. You saying people can just change their political beliefs when there are scientifically known biological causes of said beliefs is akin to proponents of gay-conversion therapy. If you think personality and brain structure aren't part of the picture, then you're not aligned with current scientific knowledge - your faux outrage and strawmanning notwithstanding.
        TameAntelope 6y ago
        > when there are scientifically known biological causes of said beliefs This is false, at least to the degree of accuracy, potency, and certainty as you present it here. They are "part of the picture", but one small part, not the overriding majority of how people make choices about what to believe. > then you're not aligned with current scientific knowledge Yes I am. You are not. You misrepresent the degree to which the things you've mentioned impact the things you claim they impact, and I'm beginning to think it's a malicious choice to do so.
        hntrader 6y ago
        "one small part" This is an inaccurate (or at best presumptively overconfident) portrayal of extant science. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038932/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038932/ "not the overriding majority" That's another strawman. My claim is that it's a non-trivial cause, not that it's an exhaustive explanation of all the causes or that it explains an "overriding majority" of the variation. Even if it explains just 25 percent of the variation, the assertion that people can change their political views despite that biological underpinning is akin to thinking that gay-conversion therapy can work.
      - inglor_cz 6y ago
        That sounds like a very empty platitude. Can a libertarian grow and change into a committed fascist who does not give a iota about personal freedom and measures everything by the interests of the State? If so, why didn't Mussolini convert everybody in Italy into committed fascists by peaceful means? It would have been easier than any suppression by force, not to mention less dangerous.
        TameAntelope 6y ago
        Mussolini's behavior I can't explain, but absolutely a person can change, and many often do, in dramatic and diametric ways. I am having a hard time engaging with this line of thinking, it's so counter to some pretty basic systems the scientific community has long considered about as close to certain as that community can come to on those topics. Are you seriously suggesting that behavior is chiefly determined by biology, and the entire concept of personal responsibility is not accurate?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        inglor_cz 6y ago
        You are the one who talks about behavior. I was talking about beliefs. There is a difference between behavior, which can be modified, even though biology plays a huge role there (see heritability of alcoholism, even in adopted children who grew up in dry homes), and belief. I can definitely pretend that I believe in a particular deity, or Critical Race Theory for that purpose, if I am intimidated enough by my peers to be afraid to tell the truth. That is behavior and it is modifiable at will. But I cannot really start believing it sincerely. Beliefs, especially in people over 30, are pretty fixed. There are interesting exceptions, but most people who do a 180 in their political beliefs do so in early life.
- TameAntelope 6y ago
  The deaf community seems like it retains its protected class status, even when their members refuse cochlear implants.
TameAntelope 6y ago
That does fit very well with the American conservative viewpoint, yes. What are the consequences of making that acceptable, I wonder?

inglor_cz 6y ago

I wonder what happens once you can get a new leg and refuse to do so. Will the protections still apply? This is not a morally clear situation; some people may refuse a cloned leg in the future because the price tag will be too high, others for religious reasons etc.

hntrader 6y ago
It's a false dichotomy to begin with. If political belief is caused by personality traits (e.g. orderliness) and brain structure (e.g. amygdala size), is it really a choice?
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  True. I do not really feel to have much latitude in what I believe. I only have choice to pretend X or Y.
  - TameAntelope 6y ago
    If you're interested in improving your ability to grow and change based on feedback, that is a skill that can be worked on.
    - hntrader 6y ago
      A conservative can shrink their amygdala in response to verbal feedback? A conservative can become low-orderliness when they've been high-orderliness since childhood? This is gay-conversion therapy territory.
      - TameAntelope 6y ago
        I am honestly struggling to come up with a constructive response to, "People's beliefs are determined by biological factors at birth." What you seem to have said here is, on its face, so obviously wrong, it's hard to take seriously. I mean no disrespect, I just don't know how to continue engaging with you.
        hntrader 6y ago
        Political beliefs are caused by brain structure and personality traits, in an interaction with environment/identity/self-interest. You saying people can just change their political beliefs when there are scientifically known biological causes of said beliefs is akin to proponents of gay-conversion therapy. If you think personality and brain structure aren't part of the picture, then you're not aligned with current scientific knowledge - your faux outrage and strawmanning notwithstanding.
        TameAntelope 6y ago
        > when there are scientifically known biological causes of said beliefs This is false, at least to the degree of accuracy, potency, and certainty as you present it here. They are "part of the picture", but one small part, not the overriding majority of how people make choices about what to believe. > then you're not aligned with current scientific knowledge Yes I am. You are not. You misrepresent the degree to which the things you've mentioned impact the things you claim they impact, and I'm beginning to think it's a malicious choice to do so.
        hntrader 6y ago
        "one small part" This is an inaccurate (or at best presumptively overconfident) portrayal of extant science. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038932/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038932/ "not the overriding majority" That's another strawman. My claim is that it's a non-trivial cause, not that it's an exhaustive explanation of all the causes or that it explains an "overriding majority" of the variation. Even if it explains just 25 percent of the variation, the assertion that people can change their political views despite that biological underpinning is akin to thinking that gay-conversion therapy can work.
    - inglor_cz 6y ago
      That sounds like a very empty platitude. Can a libertarian grow and change into a committed fascist who does not give a iota about personal freedom and measures everything by the interests of the State? If so, why didn't Mussolini convert everybody in Italy into committed fascists by peaceful means? It would have been easier than any suppression by force, not to mention less dangerous.
      - TameAntelope 6y ago
        Mussolini's behavior I can't explain, but absolutely a person can change, and many often do, in dramatic and diametric ways. I am having a hard time engaging with this line of thinking, it's so counter to some pretty basic systems the scientific community has long considered about as close to certain as that community can come to on those topics. Are you seriously suggesting that behavior is chiefly determined by biology, and the entire concept of personal responsibility is not accurate?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        inglor_cz 6y ago
        You are the one who talks about behavior. I was talking about beliefs. There is a difference between behavior, which can be modified, even though biology plays a huge role there (see heritability of alcoholism, even in adopted children who grew up in dry homes), and belief. I can definitely pretend that I believe in a particular deity, or Critical Race Theory for that purpose, if I am intimidated enough by my peers to be afraid to tell the truth. That is behavior and it is modifiable at will. But I cannot really start believing it sincerely. Beliefs, especially in people over 30, are pretty fixed. There are interesting exceptions, but most people who do a 180 in their political beliefs do so in early life.
TameAntelope 6y ago
The deaf community seems like it retains its protected class status, even when their members refuse cochlear implants.

TameAntelope 6y ago

That does fit very well with the American conservative viewpoint, yes. What are the consequences of making that acceptable, I wonder?