9 ms·

The Miseducation of Americas Elites

55 points by elcortez 6y ago

mensetmanusman 6y ago
Meanwhile in the Midwest, we are having BBQs outdoors and feeling quite sorry for these “progressive” coastal communities too educated to figure out how to resist their own puritanical tendencies. The amount of fear they are living under is quite sad.
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  It is odd how the puritanical behavior still exists, it has simply been targeted in a different direction.
  - swiley 6y ago
    I think some people will always enjoy witch hunts as long as they're not suspected of witchcraft.
inglor_cz 6y ago
This really sounds like late Communist Czechoslovakia to me, where lying at school was an obvious norm, everyone knew what was publicly unspeakable and which one of your colleagues was a snitch. The difference is that by late 1980s there were few true believers. Those who held the power and dictated the indoctrination standards were mostly tired pragmaticists who were in power to be in power and little else. There were some people brainwashed enough to believe in theory of Communism, but (unlike in the early 1950s, when Communism intrigued a lot of young intellectuals), they were mostly the stupid ones. It is horribly fascinating for me to see this replayed in America of all places, but with a distributed, socially enforced political policing instead of a powerful secret police like StB and Stasi. Some people seem to have a powerful authoritarian impulse in them. And obviously they have found a way to crush dissent even without a large governmental oppressive apparatus. The trouble is that things have changed. If you dissented in Communism or doubted its value, the Western world was an obvious, freer and richer alternative. Where will current and future American dissenters find an alternative to a toxic feed of critical race theory being elevated to a state creed? The main opposing power is (shudder) China. This really feels like a choice between Sauron and Saruman. I am not sure if Europe can escape from the roof of Isengard, like Gandalf once did. At least plenty of us see the reality for what it is - an ugly attempt to build a racialized dystopia on a base of post-BLM moral panic. Edit: now sitting at -2 without even an attempt at a rebuttal.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  The difference is that by late 1980s there were few true believers. This was one of the striking things about the collapse of the USSR, former KGB, the supposed final bastion of defence of the Soviet system, became hyper-capitalist oligarchs overnight seemingly without skipping a beat. We see the same thing happening where the one-time stronghold of enlightenment and liberalism doesn't believe in it either. What's also strange is that there are many people in the US with lived experience of the Soviet system, and they are sounding the alarm that what's happening now leads to some very dark places, and their voices are being completely ignored or even shouted down.
- drno123 6y ago
  I grew up in communist Yugoslavia, and it is obvious both to you and me where this is leading to. You get downvotes from people who were sold a lie.
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    Zdravo, brate. We the former Eastern Europeans feel like Cassandras these days.
  - the_why_of_y 6y ago
    Is your argument that the ethnic conflict and genocide in several former Yugoslav republics in the 1990s was caused by an education system indoctrinating people with anti-racist attitudes? I didn't grow up in Yugoslavia, so please elaborate a bit how that worked, because I don't understand.
    - drno123 6y ago
      Not anti-racist but anti-capitalist. In Yugoslavia no one could own a business that employs more than 8 people, so all bigger companies were owned by the government, because anti-capitalist. As a result, management of all but micro business was selected not based on ones success and merit, but based on political connections, and in addition to that, there was no competition. The products mostly sucked and companies were performing badly. The economy was mostly surviving on international loans, and when this stopped, as a result, we had enormous inflation in the mid and late 80s. Food became scarce, I remember one time when you could buy only 1kg of sugar per household. Electricity was also scarce and there were periodic blackouts. Under such economic conditions, all it took is few “charismatic” sociopaths to start two bloody wars (the first one being in Croatia and Bosnia between 1991-1995 and the second one in Kosovo 1998-1999). Again, anti-racism has nothing to do with it, and I am appaled at how you have tried to mark me as a racist.
Context_free 6y ago
When Bari Weiss was a student at Columbia, she was part of a group that targeted Arab professors that criticized Israel, like Joseph Massad. She did a lot to foster "cancel culture", but it seems to be backfiring on her now.
- refurb 6y ago
  Any thoughts on the content of the article - namely parents concerned about progressivism in their kids private schools?
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  Yes I agree that one’s actions as a twenty-year old college student should define them permanently and that no further personal development should be allowed, ever. I call it Woke Calvinism.
  - readflaggedcomm 6y ago
    Observing petard hoisting isn't the same as adopting it as an all-encompassing worldview, if you allow the commenter any charity at all.
parsimo2010 6y ago
I feel sorry for these people that can afford to send their kids literally anywhere have to make the decision about whether they should continue supporting the elitist system that they rode to the top, now that they found something they disagree with. You don’t like that the school is teaching that capitalism is wrong? Do the capitalist thing and vote with your wallet, send your kids somewhere else. If you don’t like that the school is teaching that racism is a problem, then find a school where that isn’t an emphasis. I strongly suspect (based on me knowing how these articles get written and how parents groups misinterpret everything) that the racism curriculum is exaggerated in this article anyway. But regardless, if you don’t like the elite curriculum in California and New York, there are 48 other states you could move to and find a good school. I’m sure some states have fine institutions of learning without all that progressive nonsense, if you could be bothered to disgrace yourself and move there. Edit, rather than making another comment: and maybe it’s a good thing the school is indirectly teaching kids to shut their mouths and not share a viewpoint that they know is unpopular. I share my opinion freely on the internet but at work I have to pick and choose what I say about our projects. This is good education.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  Individuals can probably opt out of the system, even though at a possibly very high price paid in opportunities of their children. The question is what happens to the entire country if its elite adopts critical race theory as The Truth. It could tear itself apart in a way not too dissimilar from 1861-5. Systems in which your skin color is the most important attribute have little space for meritocracy and movement among classes, and create an explosive reservoir of resentment.
  - parsimo2010 6y ago
    “price paid in opportunities of their children” In the article one parent talks about a rumor that the school has three picks for Duke and if you spoke out that you would risk your shot. My graduating class from a public high school in Kansas (less than 100 people) had more than three people offered scholarships to Duke (only one went there because the other two had even better options). Maybe if those are the opportunities the elite school offers they should just find a school that makes their kids competitive instead of pedigreed. Additionally, the idea that critical race theory is going to take over instead of just being a talking point to gain votes from minorities is nonsense. White elites won’t actually practice what they preach. This irony is even mentioned in the article about how this exclusive school is preaching inclusion. It’s not sustainable behavior. But more to the point, there are vast swaths of this country where CRT isn’t the prevailing viewpoint and is unlikely to gain a foothold. Who did the Democrats elect to heal the wounds of the country after an old white man hurt our reputation? Another old white man. The elites in the country won’t actually lean in to the idea because it would cost them. The only real risk is that people in LA and NYC overplay their hands, become further out of touch with the rest America, and lose some of their cultural dominance. There may be violence on the horizon for America, but CRT isn’t the wedge being driven.
austincheney 6y ago
Pffft expensive private school. They have those in Texas but it’s curious why anybody would attend if the goals are elitism or competition. Texas has wealthy public schools that are absurdly competitive, such as Southlake and Katy. If you want a full ride for your child at one of the most prestigious universities in the country just attend one of those public schools and be a top performer in both academics and sports.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
gedy 6y ago
> "These schools are the privilege of the privilege of the privilege. They say nonstop that they are all about inclusion. But they are by definition exclusive." This resonates with me as I've worked at companies where the ranks are filled with young people talking about diversity, who were raised in economically privileged environments. And they seem oblivious to how there are almost no people there from lower class backgrounds (or older people). I have a hard time bringing up my poor background in these contexts because the focus is on my skin color and gender.
7_my_mind 6y ago
The reason the school employed a bunch of bleeding heart liberals is so the future politicians and thought leaders amongst those kids can later pretend they had a progressive upbringing. I would not be surprised if the school hires professional photographers and takes kids on school excursions to protests to take photo shoots. In the future all politicians will have photos of them at the Friday climate school strike and the BLM protests. The whole situation is analogous to the chivalry code of conducts that knights had. And btw the teachers are in on the whole thing. They aren't stupid either. They know what role they are playing in this game.
- analog31 6y ago
  Let's go easy on the teachers. They have to pretend to love these kids, despite having their lower-caste status rubbed in their faces all day long.
rossdavidh 6y ago
Hypothesis, which I have thought about for all of about 30 seconds: the more elitist the school (or workplace, or profession), the more it needs to profess (loudly, and without toleration of dissent) that it is anti-racist, anti-capitalist, etc. The fact that this article is describing a very elite school with wealthy parents is not a coincidence, or even ironic, it is the driving factor that makes it that way. Why is this? Because, as the concentration of wealth in the top (and almost entirely white) ranks of the U.S. causes people in that group to know, perhaps subconsciously, that a violent backlash is coming, and they want to get out of the way of it. Without, you know, actually losing their privileged spot.
- refurb 6y ago
  Your hypothesis seems reasonable. It’s the folks that have the most to lose who are the most fervent supporters of an ideology that separates the world into two buckets - the true believers and the damned.
mycologos 6y ago
As an outsider to the world of elite private schools, is the idea that they will help your kid get a nice job even if they're actually just mediocre? Like, in my head the logic goes "if you're in the top 10% of your high school class and get 1500+/1600 on the SAT, you can probably go to a cheap honors program at a public state school, and then you can pick from several tracks to make six-figure salaries". But maybe you need to be well-networked since preschool to work in finance or whatever if you're just of average intelligence?
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  Their goal is not six-figure salaries. It's eight-figure salaries, political careers, etc.
travisjungroth 6y ago
My belief on the topic of increasingly extreme left social ideology in unexpected places (and hopefully this doesn't get me blacklisted or something, posting under my real name) is that the institutions of power in the US see Progressivism as an actual threat. They are giving ground in some spaces and even getting ahead of the curve in others as an act of self-preservation. A giant corporation is happy to add one non-man and one BIPOC (ideally as a two-for-one) if that allows the power of the rest of the board to be preserved. They'll put all their employees through sensitivity training, celebrate every holiday and tweet anything you want if it has even a chance of keeping the minimum wage from getting increased. Prep schools for the elite will teach radical ideology if it keeps a target off their backs during education reform. For people trying to move America towards a more liberal and just society: these institutions are not your allies. Do not be fooled by their language, their tokenism, the sincere people they hire as mascots. They're taking half your message and saying it back to you twice as loud to drown you out.
wrnr 6y ago
So, if want to help me make fermented cheese like Camembert or Parmesan out of anything else then cowmilk, please get in touch with me. We should be able to use the same bacteria cultures but need an other substrate. Cashew milk is an option but ideally we want something grown locally. It should not just be green but also make people feel secure about food politics.
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  Are you hoping this thread will catch a few stray vegan food scientists, or did you post in the wrong one?
raverbashing 6y ago
One of the things Americans are "guilty of" are maybe taking social theories and taking them to the polarizing extremes. Yes you can still be a capitalist and think that there are issues with extreme concentrations of wealth, monopolies, cartels, etc. Or think that maybe some problems are better dealt with (on average) by a buying consortium instead of individually. (Of course capitalism is more criticized, it survived. XX century communism crashed and burned) Same with some gender/sexuality conceptions and together with the "demonization" of those with different opinions (on both sides) - baring actual hate/bigotry naturally. Dividing and conquer ad infinitum
clobberx 6y ago
Flagged again. I'll reform, study "Critical Race Theory" and perhaps translate the works into German. "Kritische Rassentheorie" seems to be a perfectly acceptable name, so I'll go with that and see how it works out.
tzs 6y ago
> Woe betide the working-class kid who arrives in college and uses Latino instead of “Latinx,” I wonder if that still happens even when that working class kid is Latino? Among US Latino adults, 76% say they have never heard of "Latinx", 26% have heard of it but do not use it, and only 3% use it [1]. Among 18-29 year old US Latinos, that rises to 42% have heard of it and 7% use it. It's got 14% usage among 18-29 year old women. https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/ https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

55 points by elcortez 6y ago

Meanwhile in the Midwest, we are having BBQs outdoors and feeling quite sorry for these “progressive” coastal communities too educated to figure out how to resist their own puritanical tendencies. The amount of fear they are living under is quite sad.

ceilingcorner 6y ago
It is odd how the puritanical behavior still exists, it has simply been targeted in a different direction.
- swiley 6y ago
  I think some people will always enjoy witch hunts as long as they're not suspected of witchcraft.

inglor_cz 6y ago

This really sounds like late Communist Czechoslovakia to me, where lying at school was an obvious norm, everyone knew what was publicly unspeakable and which one of your colleagues was a snitch. The difference is that by late 1980s there were few true believers. Those who held the power and dictated the indoctrination standards were mostly tired pragmaticists who were in power to be in power and little else. There were some people brainwashed enough to believe in theory of Communism, but (unlike in the early 1950s, when Communism intrigued a lot of young intellectuals), they were mostly the stupid ones. It is horribly fascinating for me to see this replayed in America of all places, but with a distributed, socially enforced political policing instead of a powerful secret police like StB and Stasi. Some people seem to have a powerful authoritarian impulse in them. And obviously they have found a way to crush dissent even without a large governmental oppressive apparatus. The trouble is that things have changed. If you dissented in Communism or doubted its value, the Western world was an obvious, freer and richer alternative. Where will current and future American dissenters find an alternative to a toxic feed of critical race theory being elevated to a state creed? The main opposing power is (shudder) China. This really feels like a choice between Sauron and Saruman. I am not sure if Europe can escape from the roof of Isengard, like Gandalf once did. At least plenty of us see the reality for what it is - an ugly attempt to build a racialized dystopia on a base of post-BLM moral panic. Edit: now sitting at -2 without even an attempt at a rebuttal.

goatinaboat 6y ago
The difference is that by late 1980s there were few true believers. This was one of the striking things about the collapse of the USSR, former KGB, the supposed final bastion of defence of the Soviet system, became hyper-capitalist oligarchs overnight seemingly without skipping a beat. We see the same thing happening where the one-time stronghold of enlightenment and liberalism doesn't believe in it either. What's also strange is that there are many people in the US with lived experience of the Soviet system, and they are sounding the alarm that what's happening now leads to some very dark places, and their voices are being completely ignored or even shouted down.
drno123 6y ago
I grew up in communist Yugoslavia, and it is obvious both to you and me where this is leading to. You get downvotes from people who were sold a lie.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  Zdravo, brate. We the former Eastern Europeans feel like Cassandras these days.
- the_why_of_y 6y ago
  Is your argument that the ethnic conflict and genocide in several former Yugoslav republics in the 1990s was caused by an education system indoctrinating people with anti-racist attitudes? I didn't grow up in Yugoslavia, so please elaborate a bit how that worked, because I don't understand.
  - drno123 6y ago
    Not anti-racist but anti-capitalist. In Yugoslavia no one could own a business that employs more than 8 people, so all bigger companies were owned by the government, because anti-capitalist. As a result, management of all but micro business was selected not based on ones success and merit, but based on political connections, and in addition to that, there was no competition. The products mostly sucked and companies were performing badly. The economy was mostly surviving on international loans, and when this stopped, as a result, we had enormous inflation in the mid and late 80s. Food became scarce, I remember one time when you could buy only 1kg of sugar per household. Electricity was also scarce and there were periodic blackouts. Under such economic conditions, all it took is few “charismatic” sociopaths to start two bloody wars (the first one being in Croatia and Bosnia between 1991-1995 and the second one in Kosovo 1998-1999). Again, anti-racism has nothing to do with it, and I am appaled at how you have tried to mark me as a racist.

Context_free 6y ago

When Bari Weiss was a student at Columbia, she was part of a group that targeted Arab professors that criticized Israel, like Joseph Massad. She did a lot to foster "cancel culture", but it seems to be backfiring on her now.

refurb 6y ago
Any thoughts on the content of the article - namely parents concerned about progressivism in their kids private schools?
ceilingcorner 6y ago
Yes I agree that one’s actions as a twenty-year old college student should define them permanently and that no further personal development should be allowed, ever. I call it Woke Calvinism.
- readflaggedcomm 6y ago
  Observing petard hoisting isn't the same as adopting it as an all-encompassing worldview, if you allow the commenter any charity at all.

parsimo2010 6y ago

I feel sorry for these people that can afford to send their kids literally anywhere have to make the decision about whether they should continue supporting the elitist system that they rode to the top, now that they found something they disagree with. You don’t like that the school is teaching that capitalism is wrong? Do the capitalist thing and vote with your wallet, send your kids somewhere else. If you don’t like that the school is teaching that racism is a problem, then find a school where that isn’t an emphasis. I strongly suspect (based on me knowing how these articles get written and how parents groups misinterpret everything) that the racism curriculum is exaggerated in this article anyway. But regardless, if you don’t like the elite curriculum in California and New York, there are 48 other states you could move to and find a good school. I’m sure some states have fine institutions of learning without all that progressive nonsense, if you could be bothered to disgrace yourself and move there. Edit, rather than making another comment: and maybe it’s a good thing the school is indirectly teaching kids to shut their mouths and not share a viewpoint that they know is unpopular. I share my opinion freely on the internet but at work I have to pick and choose what I say about our projects. This is good education.

inglor_cz 6y ago
Individuals can probably opt out of the system, even though at a possibly very high price paid in opportunities of their children. The question is what happens to the entire country if its elite adopts critical race theory as The Truth. It could tear itself apart in a way not too dissimilar from 1861-5. Systems in which your skin color is the most important attribute have little space for meritocracy and movement among classes, and create an explosive reservoir of resentment.
- parsimo2010 6y ago
  “price paid in opportunities of their children” In the article one parent talks about a rumor that the school has three picks for Duke and if you spoke out that you would risk your shot. My graduating class from a public high school in Kansas (less than 100 people) had more than three people offered scholarships to Duke (only one went there because the other two had even better options). Maybe if those are the opportunities the elite school offers they should just find a school that makes their kids competitive instead of pedigreed. Additionally, the idea that critical race theory is going to take over instead of just being a talking point to gain votes from minorities is nonsense. White elites won’t actually practice what they preach. This irony is even mentioned in the article about how this exclusive school is preaching inclusion. It’s not sustainable behavior. But more to the point, there are vast swaths of this country where CRT isn’t the prevailing viewpoint and is unlikely to gain a foothold. Who did the Democrats elect to heal the wounds of the country after an old white man hurt our reputation? Another old white man. The elites in the country won’t actually lean in to the idea because it would cost them. The only real risk is that people in LA and NYC overplay their hands, become further out of touch with the rest America, and lose some of their cultural dominance. There may be violence on the horizon for America, but CRT isn’t the wedge being driven.

austincheney 6y ago

Pffft expensive private school. They have those in Texas but it’s curious why anybody would attend if the goals are elitism or competition. Texas has wealthy public schools that are absurdly competitive, such as Southlake and Katy. If you want a full ride for your child at one of the most prestigious universities in the country just attend one of those public schools and be a top performer in both academics and sports.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

gedy 6y ago

> "These schools are the privilege of the privilege of the privilege. They say nonstop that they are all about inclusion. But they are by definition exclusive." This resonates with me as I've worked at companies where the ranks are filled with young people talking about diversity, who were raised in economically privileged environments. And they seem oblivious to how there are almost no people there from lower class backgrounds (or older people). I have a hard time bringing up my poor background in these contexts because the focus is on my skin color and gender.

7_my_mind 6y ago

The reason the school employed a bunch of bleeding heart liberals is so the future politicians and thought leaders amongst those kids can later pretend they had a progressive upbringing. I would not be surprised if the school hires professional photographers and takes kids on school excursions to protests to take photo shoots. In the future all politicians will have photos of them at the Friday climate school strike and the BLM protests. The whole situation is analogous to the chivalry code of conducts that knights had. And btw the teachers are in on the whole thing. They aren't stupid either. They know what role they are playing in this game.

analog31 6y ago
Let's go easy on the teachers. They have to pretend to love these kids, despite having their lower-caste status rubbed in their faces all day long.

rossdavidh 6y ago

Hypothesis, which I have thought about for all of about 30 seconds: the more elitist the school (or workplace, or profession), the more it needs to profess (loudly, and without toleration of dissent) that it is anti-racist, anti-capitalist, etc. The fact that this article is describing a very elite school with wealthy parents is not a coincidence, or even ironic, it is the driving factor that makes it that way. Why is this? Because, as the concentration of wealth in the top (and almost entirely white) ranks of the U.S. causes people in that group to know, perhaps subconsciously, that a violent backlash is coming, and they want to get out of the way of it. Without, you know, actually losing their privileged spot.

refurb 6y ago
Your hypothesis seems reasonable. It’s the folks that have the most to lose who are the most fervent supporters of an ideology that separates the world into two buckets - the true believers and the damned.

mycologos 6y ago

As an outsider to the world of elite private schools, is the idea that they will help your kid get a nice job even if they're actually just mediocre? Like, in my head the logic goes "if you're in the top 10% of your high school class and get 1500+/1600 on the SAT, you can probably go to a cheap honors program at a public state school, and then you can pick from several tracks to make six-figure salaries". But maybe you need to be well-networked since preschool to work in finance or whatever if you're just of average intelligence?

travisjungroth 6y ago
Their goal is not six-figure salaries. It's eight-figure salaries, political careers, etc.

travisjungroth 6y ago

My belief on the topic of increasingly extreme left social ideology in unexpected places (and hopefully this doesn't get me blacklisted or something, posting under my real name) is that the institutions of power in the US see Progressivism as an actual threat. They are giving ground in some spaces and even getting ahead of the curve in others as an act of self-preservation. A giant corporation is happy to add one non-man and one BIPOC (ideally as a two-for-one) if that allows the power of the rest of the board to be preserved. They'll put all their employees through sensitivity training, celebrate every holiday and tweet anything you want if it has even a chance of keeping the minimum wage from getting increased. Prep schools for the elite will teach radical ideology if it keeps a target off their backs during education reform. For people trying to move America towards a more liberal and just society: these institutions are not your allies. Do not be fooled by their language, their tokenism, the sincere people they hire as mascots. They're taking half your message and saying it back to you twice as loud to drown you out.

wrnr 6y ago

So, if want to help me make fermented cheese like Camembert or Parmesan out of anything else then cowmilk, please get in touch with me. We should be able to use the same bacteria cultures but need an other substrate. Cashew milk is an option but ideally we want something grown locally. It should not just be green but also make people feel secure about food politics.

travisjungroth 6y ago
Are you hoping this thread will catch a few stray vegan food scientists, or did you post in the wrong one?

raverbashing 6y ago

One of the things Americans are "guilty of" are maybe taking social theories and taking them to the polarizing extremes. Yes you can still be a capitalist and think that there are issues with extreme concentrations of wealth, monopolies, cartels, etc. Or think that maybe some problems are better dealt with (on average) by a buying consortium instead of individually. (Of course capitalism is more criticized, it survived. XX century communism crashed and burned) Same with some gender/sexuality conceptions and together with the "demonization" of those with different opinions (on both sides) - baring actual hate/bigotry naturally. Dividing and conquer ad infinitum

clobberx 6y ago

Flagged again. I'll reform, study "Critical Race Theory" and perhaps translate the works into German. "Kritische Rassentheorie" seems to be a perfectly acceptable name, so I'll go with that and see how it works out.

tzs 6y ago

> Woe betide the working-class kid who arrives in college and uses Latino instead of “Latinx,” I wonder if that still happens even when that working class kid is Latino? Among US Latino adults, 76% say they have never heard of "Latinx", 26% have heard of it but do not use it, and only 3% use it [1]. Among 18-29 year old US Latinos, that rises to 42% have heard of it and 7% use it. It's got 14% usage among 18-29 year old women. https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/ https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]