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> “All industrial fisheries, with very few exceptions, are ultimately drained of life after a certain time,” says Daniel Pauly, a University of British Columbia

> “All industrial fisheries, with very few exceptions, are ultimately drained of life after a certain time,” says Daniel Pauly, a University of British Columbia fisheries biologist. “They increase and push, push, until they collapse. Why should skipjack tuna be any different?” There you have it.

pirate787 6y ago
It is about the "tragedy of the commons", not any specific feature of industrial fishing. Indeed, where industrial fishing has assigned property rights, like with fish farming, there are no issues with systemic collapse.
- totetsu 6y ago
  We already have territorial waters which are broadly ignored by fishing fleets from certain countries. Property laws on land work because you can enforce them. The ocean is too big.. and wet..
  - nine_k 6y ago
    Satellites, aircraft, and navies exist, and can detect violations and force the perpetrators away. Doing so pervasively costs a lot of money, though; no country seems to be as rich as to engage in such enforcement with enough strictness.
- Maursault 6y ago
  > It is about "tragedy of the commons", not any specific feature of industrial fishing. I am certain the TotC is a feature of commercial fishing, and I am perplexed how anyone could separate the two. Overfishing, driven by greed ("Take what you can; give nothing back" [1]), itself is a specific feature of commercial fishing. [2] But I agree with your second statement, though the situation is more complex than merely the problem of fishing all of the fish and the collapse of entire species. [3] What I also believe is desperately needed is an indefinite moratorium on fishing anywhere beyond coastal territories. [4] [1] Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, 2003 (though this phrase actually originates from Caribbean pirates, though the original meaning concerns lines: when pulling a ship into a dock, to pull in as much slack as you can and don't let it go. In only a literal sense it seems it very much applies to commercial fishing. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfishing#Examples_and_evidence_for_overfishing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfishing#Examples_and_evide... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_fishing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_fishin... [4] https://e360.yale.edu/features/a-global-ban-on-fishing-on-the-high-seas-the-time-is-now https://e360.yale.edu/features/a-global-ban-on-fishing-on-th...
galangalalgol 6y ago
I mostly eat salmon, but I'd love to switch to smaller fish. Does anyone know a good way to get herring or sardines other than canned? Apart from being more expensive due to preparation, even bpa free can liners worry me a bit. Frozen would be ideal.
- ghaff 6y ago
  Frozen sardines can be found in the US although not nearly as commonly as other fish. I've seen fresh sardines in Whole Foods but very rarely.
- GordonS 6y ago
  The vast majority of salmon is farmed, so sustainable in the sense that it isn't going to diminish wild stocks. There are arguments against open-pen aquaculture too of course, but it's all relative. And a lot of money is being spent on solving those issues, such as deep sea aquaculture (where the effluent isn't a big problem, compared to static coastal pens), closed-containment (where all waste can be collected and used to make fertilizer), and land-based aquaculture (personally, I really don't like this).
  - chriskanan 6y ago
    Farmed fish isn't necessarily sustainable. It depends on the species. For some species, e.g., eel, they are farm raised but they are wild caught when young. For eel, we have not been able to get them to lay eggs that could be hatched and they take 10-25 years to reach sexual maturity [0]. Eels are not doing very well at all. Moreover, farmed fish are often fed wild fish, so that could have some strong negative impact on ecosystems. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eel_life_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eel_life_history https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_fish_feed#Sustainability https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_fish_feed#Sustain... https://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/cooking/The-facts-about-farmed-salmon-you-wish-you-didn-t-know_166193900/ https://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/cooking/The-facts...
    - GordonS 6y ago

pirate787 6y ago

It is about the "tragedy of the commons", not any specific feature of industrial fishing. Indeed, where industrial fishing has assigned property rights, like with fish farming, there are no issues with systemic collapse.

totetsu 6y ago
We already have territorial waters which are broadly ignored by fishing fleets from certain countries. Property laws on land work because you can enforce them. The ocean is too big.. and wet..
- nine_k 6y ago
  Satellites, aircraft, and navies exist, and can detect violations and force the perpetrators away. Doing so pervasively costs a lot of money, though; no country seems to be as rich as to engage in such enforcement with enough strictness.
Maursault 6y ago
> It is about "tragedy of the commons", not any specific feature of industrial fishing. I am certain the TotC is a feature of commercial fishing, and I am perplexed how anyone could separate the two. Overfishing, driven by greed ("Take what you can; give nothing back" [1]), itself is a specific feature of commercial fishing. [2] But I agree with your second statement, though the situation is more complex than merely the problem of fishing all of the fish and the collapse of entire species. [3] What I also believe is desperately needed is an indefinite moratorium on fishing anywhere beyond coastal territories. [4] [1] Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, 2003 (though this phrase actually originates from Caribbean pirates, though the original meaning concerns lines: when pulling a ship into a dock, to pull in as much slack as you can and don't let it go. In only a literal sense it seems it very much applies to commercial fishing. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfishing#Examples_and_evidence_for_overfishing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfishing#Examples_and_evide... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_fishing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_fishin... [4] https://e360.yale.edu/features/a-global-ban-on-fishing-on-the-high-seas-the-time-is-now https://e360.yale.edu/features/a-global-ban-on-fishing-on-th...

galangalalgol 6y ago

I mostly eat salmon, but I'd love to switch to smaller fish. Does anyone know a good way to get herring or sardines other than canned? Apart from being more expensive due to preparation, even bpa free can liners worry me a bit. Frozen would be ideal.

ghaff 6y ago
Frozen sardines can be found in the US although not nearly as commonly as other fish. I've seen fresh sardines in Whole Foods but very rarely.
GordonS 6y ago
The vast majority of salmon is farmed, so sustainable in the sense that it isn't going to diminish wild stocks. There are arguments against open-pen aquaculture too of course, but it's all relative. And a lot of money is being spent on solving those issues, such as deep sea aquaculture (where the effluent isn't a big problem, compared to static coastal pens), closed-containment (where all waste can be collected and used to make fertilizer), and land-based aquaculture (personally, I really don't like this).
- chriskanan 6y ago
  Farmed fish isn't necessarily sustainable. It depends on the species. For some species, e.g., eel, they are farm raised but they are wild caught when young. For eel, we have not been able to get them to lay eggs that could be hatched and they take 10-25 years to reach sexual maturity [0]. Eels are not doing very well at all. Moreover, farmed fish are often fed wild fish, so that could have some strong negative impact on ecosystems. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eel_life_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eel_life_history https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_fish_feed#Sustainability https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_fish_feed#Sustain... https://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/cooking/The-facts-about-farmed-salmon-you-wish-you-didn-t-know_166193900/ https://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/cooking/The-facts...
  - GordonS 6y ago