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There's a massive difference between contagious diseases with exponential growth potential and the other freedoms you talk about. For a closer analogy than "wh

There's a massive difference between contagious diseases with exponential growth potential and the other freedoms you talk about. For a closer analogy than "what people are wearing or eating", what about "what people drive and how fast in public areas". The government introduced speed limits, regulations on vehicles, and driver licenses, all of which significantly limit who can drive what, and how fast. All of this is enforced by police. Why is it fair for the government to do that? Because dangerous driving kills other people too, not just you. It's not a personal choice in a vacuum to drive drunk at 100mph, but a personal choice that kills others. Covid is similar. Limits on gatherings, requirements to wear masks, etc are all because personal decisions also affect others at a larger scale. A pandemic, when it's not controlled, will spread exponentially and cause significant death and health problems. I think there might be a reasonable discussion to be had about the role of the government in this, but that reasonable discussion does not start with claims that the government is treating us like cattle or that "but people could die" is not a valid justification for government action. The chance of people dying is a valid justification. I think it was a valid justification for requiring a driver license, for making drunk driving illegal, and I think it's probably a valid justification for the current restrictions and regulations. You can apply this similarly to some of your other points: a tiny group of experts determine what standards make cars street-legal in the US and decide that drunk driving is dangerous, and their decisions impact everyone, etc.

nickthemagicman 6y ago
It's proven that speed limits save lives by 100% of scientists. There's absolutely no proof that quarantine or any of these Covid restrictions was effective. There's a study that masks might prevent spread by around 2%. That doesn't seem enough to enforce massive restrictions to me. Sweden and had less deaths per capita then most of Europe and they had minimal restrictions. Also the scale of the restrictions is different than speed limits. Quarantine and business shutdowns are massive changes to society and repressive restrictions on financial survival and affect just about every aspect of our lives versus just some targeted change like a speed limit. What if a vaccine had never been developed? Would you be okay enforcing these restrictions forever?
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  There's also no randomized trial proving that parachutes prevent death during skydiving. But it stands to reason that not slamming into the ground at terminal velocity is good for your health, and it stands to reason that preventing the spread of a deadly disease saves lives. Countries that have prevented the spread of the disease (China, Vietnam, Thailand, Australia, New Zealand, and others) have orders of magnitude fewer deaths, as a proportion of their population.
  - nickthemagicman 6y ago
    The principles underlying gravity are well understood. Covid and everything about it is not.
    - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
      The germ theory of disease is also well established. For SARS-CoV-2, while there are still some uncertainties about precisely how important different modes of transmission are, it's clear that it's a respiratory disease. Quarantine works to stop transmission. Lockdowns like the one in Wuhan or those in Australia work, because they stop infected people from coming into close proximity with susceptible people. This much is understood, despite whatever other uncertainties there are.
      - nickthemagicman 6y ago
        You're really getting your level of abstractions wrong. We understand cellular theory but we don't understand cancer. We understand how computers and math work but we haven't figured out P vs NP. Just because you understand some higher level of abstraction doesn't mean you understand lower levels. Every 'germ' is radically different. Understanding the germ theory of disease doesn't mean anything other than we understand germs at that level of abstraction. Another example is by also comparing speed limits to entire society wide shutdowns. The real pandemic is how poorly educated our society is about science, statistics, level of abstractions, and critical thinking. And the news media preys on the idiots.
m0llusk 6y ago
SARS-CoV2 is not capable of exponential growth. There is nearly one hundred years of epidemiology that shows lockdowns are not effective at containing the spread of highly contagious pathogens. Masks, hand washing, and distancing do help. Having authority does not excuse having a weak grasp of the science.

nickthemagicman 6y ago

It's proven that speed limits save lives by 100% of scientists. There's absolutely no proof that quarantine or any of these Covid restrictions was effective. There's a study that masks might prevent spread by around 2%. That doesn't seem enough to enforce massive restrictions to me. Sweden and had less deaths per capita then most of Europe and they had minimal restrictions. Also the scale of the restrictions is different than speed limits. Quarantine and business shutdowns are massive changes to society and repressive restrictions on financial survival and affect just about every aspect of our lives versus just some targeted change like a speed limit. What if a vaccine had never been developed? Would you be okay enforcing these restrictions forever?

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
There's also no randomized trial proving that parachutes prevent death during skydiving. But it stands to reason that not slamming into the ground at terminal velocity is good for your health, and it stands to reason that preventing the spread of a deadly disease saves lives. Countries that have prevented the spread of the disease (China, Vietnam, Thailand, Australia, New Zealand, and others) have orders of magnitude fewer deaths, as a proportion of their population.
- nickthemagicman 6y ago
  The principles underlying gravity are well understood. Covid and everything about it is not.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    The germ theory of disease is also well established. For SARS-CoV-2, while there are still some uncertainties about precisely how important different modes of transmission are, it's clear that it's a respiratory disease. Quarantine works to stop transmission. Lockdowns like the one in Wuhan or those in Australia work, because they stop infected people from coming into close proximity with susceptible people. This much is understood, despite whatever other uncertainties there are.
    - nickthemagicman 6y ago
      You're really getting your level of abstractions wrong. We understand cellular theory but we don't understand cancer. We understand how computers and math work but we haven't figured out P vs NP. Just because you understand some higher level of abstraction doesn't mean you understand lower levels. Every 'germ' is radically different. Understanding the germ theory of disease doesn't mean anything other than we understand germs at that level of abstraction. Another example is by also comparing speed limits to entire society wide shutdowns. The real pandemic is how poorly educated our society is about science, statistics, level of abstractions, and critical thinking. And the news media preys on the idiots.

m0llusk 6y ago

SARS-CoV2 is not capable of exponential growth. There is nearly one hundred years of epidemiology that shows lockdowns are not effective at containing the spread of highly contagious pathogens. Masks, hand washing, and distancing do help. Having authority does not excuse having a weak grasp of the science.