4 ms·

GNU/Linux will soon be replaced by Systemd/Linux

Karunamon 6y ago
You meme, but they're eating so many userspace components that this is actually where I see them heading. Just wait until ls has to have hooks into dbus to do its job.
marcodiego 6y ago
Actually, I don't think something like busybox included in systemd is necessarily bad. You could have a system recoverable even if everything else breaks. Of course, it would really enable systemd/linux.
- hexo 6y ago
  It doesnt need to be included in systemd for that.
- toast0 6y ago
  Shhhh. Don't give them ideas. Including busybox in the initrd or whatever it's called now is probably a good idea. Having systemd developers write a new interpretation of that, rehashing old bugs is not great.
- tyingq 6y ago
  Most of what you would need to cobble together a busybox like binary is there in the systemd/src/basic directory. stat-util, procfs-util, sort-util, path-util, and so on.
- anthk 6y ago
  OpenBSD has a ramdisk for that.
infradig 6y ago
You mean GNU/Systemd.
- dathinab 6y ago
  No a Linux/Systemd, which uses LLVM for building Linux and Systemd, replaces all core utils with non GNU versions. It use a non GNU libc and so on... But that aside people often confuse/mixup the systemd service manager and the systemd project which bundles a wide variety of programs which can be used with systemd. The reasons for this is because systemd itself confuses this. The change log is not split by sub-projects and the sub-projects have sometimes no clean boundary between them and the systemd service manager. I think it would be nice if systemd changes in three ways: 1. Have more clean boundaries between the core service manager and it's sub-project. 2. Have a recurring periods where new features are blocked from being merged and development focused on cleaning up (e.g. fixing bugs). (I can recommend that to any projects, very few do so). 3. Get "outside" feedback for certain mainly UX aspects, some parts of systemd are out right counter intuitive unless you are not very familiar with it. A thinks which is very easy to happen to any project, but still could be improved on (and maybe already is improved on). Oh and there where a very few security WTF are you doing moments, I hope there will be no more such moments in the future as systemd on itself it quite useful for Linux, especially desktop Linux.
linguae 6y ago
I actually seriously foresee a split occurring in the Linux community that will also affect users of other Unix-like operating systems. On one side you have modern Linux software projects like systemd and Wayland. These projects address deficiencies in traditional solutions, but certain design choices in these projects have not been well-received by more traditional users of Linux and the BSDs. The increase in the amount of user-level software that depends on systemd and Wayland is a forcing factor. For example, my understanding is that official distributions of GNOME depend on systemd, and many Linux desktops are being actively developed for Wayland (though I don't think any major desktop environment or toolkit has abandoned X11). I expect this trend to continue, given that systemd is part of the most popular Linux distributions, Wayland will be default in Ubuntu (https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-21.04-Wayland-Default https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-2...), and GNOME runs on Wayland (with KDE's port to Wayland being actively developed: see https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=KDE-2021-Roadmap https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=KDE-2021...). So, yes, I do see a split occurring between "modern Linux" (with systemd and Wayland) and "traditional Linux," with the BSDs fitting in closer to the "traditional Linux" camp.
- blueflow 6y ago
  The split has already happened - Void and Alpine Linux seem to be on the traditional Linux side, everything with the musl libc in general.
- VLM 6y ago
  Its the death of the meme of the "universal OS". There will be Linux for desktops to run a web browser (aka poorly emulate a chromebook) and for docker and docker only. If you want a non-containerized server or some kind of non-desktop embedded thingy, or anything that can be computed other than emulating a chromebook and doing containers, you'll have to run FreeBSD or some other OS. The days of "just install Debian to do anything anywhere" are gone, which is sad, because there's really no technical reason or need for the destruction.
  - zokier 6y ago

You meme, but they're eating so many userspace components that this is actually where I see them heading. Just wait until ls has to have hooks into dbus to do its job.

marcodiego 6y ago

Actually, I don't think something like busybox included in systemd is necessarily bad. You could have a system recoverable even if everything else breaks. Of course, it would really enable systemd/linux.

hexo 6y ago
It doesnt need to be included in systemd for that.
toast0 6y ago
Shhhh. Don't give them ideas. Including busybox in the initrd or whatever it's called now is probably a good idea. Having systemd developers write a new interpretation of that, rehashing old bugs is not great.
tyingq 6y ago
Most of what you would need to cobble together a busybox like binary is there in the systemd/src/basic directory. stat-util, procfs-util, sort-util, path-util, and so on.
anthk 6y ago
OpenBSD has a ramdisk for that.

infradig 6y ago

You mean GNU/Systemd.

dathinab 6y ago
No a Linux/Systemd, which uses LLVM for building Linux and Systemd, replaces all core utils with non GNU versions. It use a non GNU libc and so on... But that aside people often confuse/mixup the systemd service manager and the systemd project which bundles a wide variety of programs which can be used with systemd. The reasons for this is because systemd itself confuses this. The change log is not split by sub-projects and the sub-projects have sometimes no clean boundary between them and the systemd service manager. I think it would be nice if systemd changes in three ways: 1. Have more clean boundaries between the core service manager and it's sub-project. 2. Have a recurring periods where new features are blocked from being merged and development focused on cleaning up (e.g. fixing bugs). (I can recommend that to any projects, very few do so). 3. Get "outside" feedback for certain mainly UX aspects, some parts of systemd are out right counter intuitive unless you are not very familiar with it. A thinks which is very easy to happen to any project, but still could be improved on (and maybe already is improved on). Oh and there where a very few security WTF are you doing moments, I hope there will be no more such moments in the future as systemd on itself it quite useful for Linux, especially desktop Linux.

linguae 6y ago

I actually seriously foresee a split occurring in the Linux community that will also affect users of other Unix-like operating systems. On one side you have modern Linux software projects like systemd and Wayland. These projects address deficiencies in traditional solutions, but certain design choices in these projects have not been well-received by more traditional users of Linux and the BSDs. The increase in the amount of user-level software that depends on systemd and Wayland is a forcing factor. For example, my understanding is that official distributions of GNOME depend on systemd, and many Linux desktops are being actively developed for Wayland (though I don't think any major desktop environment or toolkit has abandoned X11). I expect this trend to continue, given that systemd is part of the most popular Linux distributions, Wayland will be default in Ubuntu (https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-21.04-Wayland-Default https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-2...), and GNOME runs on Wayland (with KDE's port to Wayland being actively developed: see https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=KDE-2021-Roadmap https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=KDE-2021...). So, yes, I do see a split occurring between "modern Linux" (with systemd and Wayland) and "traditional Linux," with the BSDs fitting in closer to the "traditional Linux" camp.

blueflow 6y ago
The split has already happened - Void and Alpine Linux seem to be on the traditional Linux side, everything with the musl libc in general.
VLM 6y ago
Its the death of the meme of the "universal OS". There will be Linux for desktops to run a web browser (aka poorly emulate a chromebook) and for docker and docker only. If you want a non-containerized server or some kind of non-desktop embedded thingy, or anything that can be computed other than emulating a chromebook and doing containers, you'll have to run FreeBSD or some other OS. The days of "just install Debian to do anything anywhere" are gone, which is sad, because there's really no technical reason or need for the destruction.
- zokier 6y ago