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I'm a skeptic not in that I think the price will tank but that the Bitcoin ordeal won't result in a net win for people. It's just a vehicle for speculation and

I'm a skeptic not in that I think the price will tank but that the Bitcoin ordeal won't result in a net win for people. It's just a vehicle for speculation and a drain on computing resources, along with a tool for illicit trade. I can be correct that it's a bad investment for humanity while it remains a good investment for individuals.

404mm 6y ago
Really well said! In the sale of saving myself from FOMO and investment into speculative vehicles, I keep resisting to any investment into any coin. We are still living in age of resource sacristy and power we use is not unlimited and certainly not free, as free of environmental impact. I just refuse to be part of movement that simply uses electricity to create something virtually worthless. Yes, there is a significant monetary value to coin mining but these resources could have been spent to make society a better place.
rawtxapp 6y ago
> It's just a vehicle for speculation and a drain on computing resources, along with a tool for illicit trade. Speculating against an endless money printer? They literally just printed 2x Bitcoin's market cap in the last stimulus bill. Illicit trade is magnitude smaller on the public easily traceable Bitcoin blockchain compared to dollars.
trident5000 6y ago
People save their entire lives with their time and health and then the government debases everything they worked for. We just printed something like 6 trillion. Thats why people around the world like bitcoin. Governments and central banks have no self control, they answer to politicians who want to stay in power and therefore spend.
- smolder 6y ago
  That's a good point that didn't make it into my terse, reductive description. Still, I remain skeptical that all the proof of work mining is worth what it buys in terms of a trustworthy ledger.
  - trident5000 6y ago
    A 51% attack on the Bitcoin network currently would cost about 5.5 billion, and you realistically cant even get than many ASICS in a reasonable amount of time. A network that holds a large proportion of the worlds wealth needs to be this secure.
    - Hamuko 6y ago
      How many ASICs are located within territory controlled by the Chinese Communist Party?
      - trident5000 6y ago
        Something like 65%. Locating and coordinating all entrepreneurs (thousands dispersed and not broadcasting a location) to attack the network would be highly unlikely and a bit of a tin foil hat scenario. If a 51% attack occurred it would need to be sustained and in the end would likely result in a fork of the chain.
        Hamuko 6y ago
        >not broadcasting a location How many ASICs are located in places that use a trivial amount of electricity that cannot be deduced to be a part of a mining operation?
        trident5000 6y ago
        Theres a lot of energy usage in China that eclipses btc energy usage by several orders of magnitude (factories, etc). Much of the mining is from small operations. Locating and coordinating thousands or tens of thousands would be very difficult and also pointless. This has been a topic for 8ish years and goes along with the people who talk of a global power outage.
        tablespoon 6y ago
        >> How many ASICs are located within territory controlled by the Chinese Communist Party? > Something like 65%. Locating and coordinating all entrepreneurs (thousands dispersed and not broadcasting a location) to attack the network would be highly unlikely and a bit of a tin foil hat scenario. If a 51% attack occurred it would need to be sustained and in the end would likely result in a fork of the chain. You forget that the Chinese internet is heavily monitored, run by state-owned businesses, with all external traffic going through government-controlled choke points running a big famous firewall. Literally every network connection and online account is required to be linked to someone's official ID. I'm pretty sure the Chinese government could track down every Bitcoin miner in China in fairly short order. They just need to program the great firewall to detect bitcoin protocol traffic (they already detect VPN protocols), then cross reference that with their telecom account records. These are things they already do on a regular basis, as part of the current monitoring efforts. If they want to be really sure they're targeting miners, they could probably cross reference that again with data from the state-owned power companies, but I'd guess that they don't do that often so it would take more work.
- tablespoon 6y ago
  > People save their entire lives with their time and health and then the government debases everything they worked for. We just printed something like 6 trillion. Thats why people around the world like bitcoin. Governments and central banks have no self control, they answer to politicians who want to stay in power and therefore spend. Even if that was a serious concern, there's no need for a glorified ledger that consumes the power of a moderately sized country to solve it. Literally any non-cash asset is a hedge against inflation, including things like stocks and real estate.
  - kreetx 6y ago
    Can't stocks be dilluted? And real estate is much more difficult to buy or evaluate. Bitcoin (or some other cryptocurrencies) you can simply buy without much hassle.

404mm 6y ago

Really well said! In the sale of saving myself from FOMO and investment into speculative vehicles, I keep resisting to any investment into any coin. We are still living in age of resource sacristy and power we use is not unlimited and certainly not free, as free of environmental impact. I just refuse to be part of movement that simply uses electricity to create something virtually worthless. Yes, there is a significant monetary value to coin mining but these resources could have been spent to make society a better place.

rawtxapp 6y ago

> It's just a vehicle for speculation and a drain on computing resources, along with a tool for illicit trade. Speculating against an endless money printer? They literally just printed 2x Bitcoin's market cap in the last stimulus bill. Illicit trade is magnitude smaller on the public easily traceable Bitcoin blockchain compared to dollars.

trident5000 6y ago

People save their entire lives with their time and health and then the government debases everything they worked for. We just printed something like 6 trillion. Thats why people around the world like bitcoin. Governments and central banks have no self control, they answer to politicians who want to stay in power and therefore spend.

smolder 6y ago
That's a good point that didn't make it into my terse, reductive description. Still, I remain skeptical that all the proof of work mining is worth what it buys in terms of a trustworthy ledger.
- trident5000 6y ago
  A 51% attack on the Bitcoin network currently would cost about 5.5 billion, and you realistically cant even get than many ASICS in a reasonable amount of time. A network that holds a large proportion of the worlds wealth needs to be this secure.
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    How many ASICs are located within territory controlled by the Chinese Communist Party?
    - trident5000 6y ago
      Something like 65%. Locating and coordinating all entrepreneurs (thousands dispersed and not broadcasting a location) to attack the network would be highly unlikely and a bit of a tin foil hat scenario. If a 51% attack occurred it would need to be sustained and in the end would likely result in a fork of the chain.
      - Hamuko 6y ago
        >not broadcasting a location How many ASICs are located in places that use a trivial amount of electricity that cannot be deduced to be a part of a mining operation?
        trident5000 6y ago
        Theres a lot of energy usage in China that eclipses btc energy usage by several orders of magnitude (factories, etc). Much of the mining is from small operations. Locating and coordinating thousands or tens of thousands would be very difficult and also pointless. This has been a topic for 8ish years and goes along with the people who talk of a global power outage.
      - tablespoon 6y ago
        >> How many ASICs are located within territory controlled by the Chinese Communist Party? > Something like 65%. Locating and coordinating all entrepreneurs (thousands dispersed and not broadcasting a location) to attack the network would be highly unlikely and a bit of a tin foil hat scenario. If a 51% attack occurred it would need to be sustained and in the end would likely result in a fork of the chain. You forget that the Chinese internet is heavily monitored, run by state-owned businesses, with all external traffic going through government-controlled choke points running a big famous firewall. Literally every network connection and online account is required to be linked to someone's official ID. I'm pretty sure the Chinese government could track down every Bitcoin miner in China in fairly short order. They just need to program the great firewall to detect bitcoin protocol traffic (they already detect VPN protocols), then cross reference that with their telecom account records. These are things they already do on a regular basis, as part of the current monitoring efforts. If they want to be really sure they're targeting miners, they could probably cross reference that again with data from the state-owned power companies, but I'd guess that they don't do that often so it would take more work.
tablespoon 6y ago
> People save their entire lives with their time and health and then the government debases everything they worked for. We just printed something like 6 trillion. Thats why people around the world like bitcoin. Governments and central banks have no self control, they answer to politicians who want to stay in power and therefore spend. Even if that was a serious concern, there's no need for a glorified ledger that consumes the power of a moderately sized country to solve it. Literally any non-cash asset is a hedge against inflation, including things like stocks and real estate.
- kreetx 6y ago
  Can't stocks be dilluted? And real estate is much more difficult to buy or evaluate. Bitcoin (or some other cryptocurrencies) you can simply buy without much hassle.