4 ms·

You might not like it, but this is routine for commercial font licensing. Whether it seems outdated by wider licensing standards isn't particularly relevant. S

You might not like it, but this is routine for commercial font licensing. Whether it seems outdated by wider licensing standards isn't particularly relevant. Similarly, all the people saying the competition is free aren't the target market for a good quality font with a degree of exclusivity. You aren't going to find that combination from sources like Google Fonts. Meanwhile, the kind of customer who is going to value this kind of work and actually pay for it is probably going to accept the licensing conditions. They might not like them either, but since almost everyone offering something to this market is doing so on similar terms right now, it's a take-it-or-leave-it kind of deal. Standard form contracts saying they are governed by the laws of the place where the supplier is based are also completely routine. US companies frequently even specify an individual state favourable to them for this purpose. And yet, business still happens.

jbluepolarbear 6y ago
I’m in the game industry and we use a lot of different fonts. I have never seen a game company buy one of these obtuse licensed fonts. I started my career in the design industry and I quickly steered my peers away from these licenses. The licenses just aren’t designed for modern applications. Often, as well, is that these fonts haven’t been tested on rendering systems other than browser/OS level and need a lot of work and adjustment to work.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  Where do you see game companies sourcing their fonts? It's not my field, but I had the (possibly incorrect) impression from some past discussions that a lot of fonts used in games are created for individual titles much like other artwork. I doubt many game studios are trying to license fonts like Gotham for unlimited use.
  - jbluepolarbear 6y ago
    In my experience Game companies buy giant font packs (unlimited license) and then use them as needed. You’re right that a lot of fonts are custom made or heavily modified in game, but not all fonts are. A lot of game text is shared between games so they use common fonts. Also the requirement for wide characters like Russian or Chinese make a lot of “toy” fonts unusable.
indymike 6y ago
I owned an ad agency for a a decade. We treated licenses like this as unusable and I even had our legal team draft up a white paper we would share with our clients about these kind of licenses and the hidden expenses and difficulties using them would create. I can only imagine trying to figure out how many cpus in even a modern small business...
- Silhouette 6y ago
  How often did you use commercial fonts in your client work? Almost every major foundry has had terms along similar lines for a long time. I've never seen one offer a completely unlimited licence for their fonts, other than for private commissions. Well, not openly and at a price they're willing to advertise in public, at least.
  - indymike 6y ago
    Regularly. We'd probably have opted to not license from this foundry because of this clause in the license: "9.6 Cinetype Limited reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to modify or replace this Agreement at any time. If a revision is material we will provide at least 30 days' notice prior to any new terms taking effect." This is an unneeded Darth Vader clause.
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      I agree such clauses are absurd. Of course whether it has as much legal weight as the paper it is never going to be printed on is another matter. I thought the objections to the licensing in this case were more about the limitations like having a maximum number of users covered, but perhaps I misunderstood what at least some people were upset about.
    - mpatane 6y ago
      I know these things can be easily misleading, and I tried my best with the IP lawyer to make the EULA intelligible and simple as much as possible. This particular clause shouldn’t be seen as potentially damaging for the customer. I want to be absolutely clear about this: you buy the font now, and the EULA included in the package that you get will be valid forever. But as a business, I cannot tie myself to a document that is published and that in two years’ time could be obsolete. I understand some people think it’s already obsolete, but it’s not. With one license you have what most commonly requires three licenses: Desktop, Web and App. Regarding the tiers, the principle is simple: the font is a value for a business, either in terms of brand value or product value, and a business pays according to the value that the font brings. A startup with little investment has all what it needs to adopt the font throughout the entire range of usages and assets (in Print and Digital). Going back to the ‘Darth Vedery’ clause. If there will be any change to the EULA, this will apply to the fonts distributed from the time we will publish the new EULA (this is also why EULAs come with a version number and a publication date). The new EULA won’t work retrospectively. That would be beyond evil, I totally agree. No fear of “Luke, I am your father” kind of situation. If previous customers will find the new EULA a better fit for their needs, they will be free to comply to it, if not, they will refer to the original EULA attached to the font they bought. In simple words, older customers will always have the best of what comes next.
oji0hub 6y ago
The target market for any product is people who buy the product. However much they value the work, want exclusivity etc doesn't factor in.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  However much they value the work, want exclusivity etc doesn't factor in. Of course it does. Someone who doesn't see value in a work is never likely to buy it. Promoting the work to that person is a waste of the seller's time. Offering more generous terms to try to squeeze out an extra sale to that person reduces the benefit of all other sales, and it might not get that extra sale anyway. As a business strategy, it doesn't make sense.

jbluepolarbear 6y ago

I’m in the game industry and we use a lot of different fonts. I have never seen a game company buy one of these obtuse licensed fonts. I started my career in the design industry and I quickly steered my peers away from these licenses. The licenses just aren’t designed for modern applications. Often, as well, is that these fonts haven’t been tested on rendering systems other than browser/OS level and need a lot of work and adjustment to work.

Silhouette 6y ago
Where do you see game companies sourcing their fonts? It's not my field, but I had the (possibly incorrect) impression from some past discussions that a lot of fonts used in games are created for individual titles much like other artwork. I doubt many game studios are trying to license fonts like Gotham for unlimited use.
- jbluepolarbear 6y ago
  In my experience Game companies buy giant font packs (unlimited license) and then use them as needed. You’re right that a lot of fonts are custom made or heavily modified in game, but not all fonts are. A lot of game text is shared between games so they use common fonts. Also the requirement for wide characters like Russian or Chinese make a lot of “toy” fonts unusable.

indymike 6y ago

I owned an ad agency for a a decade. We treated licenses like this as unusable and I even had our legal team draft up a white paper we would share with our clients about these kind of licenses and the hidden expenses and difficulties using them would create. I can only imagine trying to figure out how many cpus in even a modern small business...

Silhouette 6y ago
How often did you use commercial fonts in your client work? Almost every major foundry has had terms along similar lines for a long time. I've never seen one offer a completely unlimited licence for their fonts, other than for private commissions. Well, not openly and at a price they're willing to advertise in public, at least.
- indymike 6y ago
  Regularly. We'd probably have opted to not license from this foundry because of this clause in the license: "9.6 Cinetype Limited reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to modify or replace this Agreement at any time. If a revision is material we will provide at least 30 days' notice prior to any new terms taking effect." This is an unneeded Darth Vader clause.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    I agree such clauses are absurd. Of course whether it has as much legal weight as the paper it is never going to be printed on is another matter. I thought the objections to the licensing in this case were more about the limitations like having a maximum number of users covered, but perhaps I misunderstood what at least some people were upset about.
  - mpatane 6y ago
    I know these things can be easily misleading, and I tried my best with the IP lawyer to make the EULA intelligible and simple as much as possible. This particular clause shouldn’t be seen as potentially damaging for the customer. I want to be absolutely clear about this: you buy the font now, and the EULA included in the package that you get will be valid forever. But as a business, I cannot tie myself to a document that is published and that in two years’ time could be obsolete. I understand some people think it’s already obsolete, but it’s not. With one license you have what most commonly requires three licenses: Desktop, Web and App. Regarding the tiers, the principle is simple: the font is a value for a business, either in terms of brand value or product value, and a business pays according to the value that the font brings. A startup with little investment has all what it needs to adopt the font throughout the entire range of usages and assets (in Print and Digital). Going back to the ‘Darth Vedery’ clause. If there will be any change to the EULA, this will apply to the fonts distributed from the time we will publish the new EULA (this is also why EULAs come with a version number and a publication date). The new EULA won’t work retrospectively. That would be beyond evil, I totally agree. No fear of “Luke, I am your father” kind of situation. If previous customers will find the new EULA a better fit for their needs, they will be free to comply to it, if not, they will refer to the original EULA attached to the font they bought. In simple words, older customers will always have the best of what comes next.

oji0hub 6y ago

The target market for any product is people who buy the product. However much they value the work, want exclusivity etc doesn't factor in.

Silhouette 6y ago
However much they value the work, want exclusivity etc doesn't factor in. Of course it does. Someone who doesn't see value in a work is never likely to buy it. Promoting the work to that person is a waste of the seller's time. Offering more generous terms to try to squeeze out an extra sale to that person reduces the benefit of all other sales, and it might not get that extra sale anyway. As a business strategy, it doesn't make sense.