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Provenance. There's a huge problem with fake art. It's not a matter of securing ownership with police/justice/government, but securing valid provenance. Anyhow

Provenance. There's a huge problem with fake art. It's not a matter of securing ownership with police/justice/government, but securing valid provenance. Anyhow I know very little about this and could be wrong.

mattnewton 6y ago
Doesn’t provenance need to be proven outside of the blockchain by some experts or something though? And then written down into the blockchain? It seems like the same problem with a different “authority”
- chrisco255 6y ago
  But that only has to occur once with the blockchain. Once it is encoded, and recognized to be authentic, the record will remain. Transfers will be recorded perfectly in the ledger. With physical items, the provenance has to be determined independently every single exchange.
  - skissane 6y ago
    The physical item still has to be examined by experts on every exchange, if you want to avoid the risk that the legitimate owner of the real thing sells a fake and secretly keeps the real item for themselves. The blockchain can't stop that.
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      NFTs are generally being used for digital art at this time. Physical art of course still has this requirement.
      - lottin 6y ago
        But authenticity is only a concern in physical art.
        chrisco255 6y ago
        No, it's not. It's even more of a concern in digital art because until blockchains came around, it was virtually free to make a perfect digital copy of something.
        skissane 6y ago
        What does it mean to own a digital artwork? To own the copyright in it? Blockchain doesn't really do much here because ownership of copyrights is determined by the legal system not by a blockchain. (And normally when an artist sells an artwork they keep the copyright themselves; you only get the copyright too if you specifically negotiate with the artist for that, or if you commission the art as a "work-for-hire".) To own the only digital copy of it? Blockchain does nothing to stop people making more digital copies of it. Blockchain is not a DRM system. It seems like "owning" digital art where one doesn't have the copyright or exclusive possession of digital copies is basically a meaningless form of ownership. It is the status of "ownership" stripped of all substantive content.
        chrisco255 6y ago
        Of course it does. The NFT is created and recognized by the artist's public Ethereum address which can only be generated by their private key. Full rights can be attached to the artwork, as was done with the Hashmasks sale: https://www.thehashmasks.com/ https://www.thehashmasks.com/ It is completely up to the artist to customize. It can be embedded into an NFT just like a license.md file can be embedded into an open source code repository. It can be explicit, rights can be transferable, or non-transferable. Any other address producing an NFT is a forgery. Blockchain is better than a DRM system. See: https://audius.org/developers https://audius.org/developers https://opensea.io/blog/announcements/opensea-raises-2-million/ https://opensea.io/blog/announcements/opensea-raises-2-milli... https://eulerbeats.com/ https://eulerbeats.com/
        lottin 6y ago
        You seem deeply confused. Making perfect digital copies is not something that is prevented by blockchains. Computers make perfect digital copies. If you want to prevent people from making perfect digital copies you have to get rid of computers, and good luck with that!
  - phs318u 6y ago
    Pardon my ignorance re: NFT's, but does anyone verify the status of the person creating the NFT as the owner/creator of the digital art/item in question?
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      Marketplaces like OpenSeas, Nifty Gateway, Rarible, and Zora do work to verify known artists. But not all artists have a reputation, so surely there is risk among some of the NFTs out there. However, the price for unverified NFTs from unknown artists is usually reflective of that risk.
      - capiki 6y ago
        So... at the end of the day, it’s still centralized?
  - Taniwha 6y ago
    And if somewhere down that chain someone sells the real artwork to one person and the NFT to someone else? who owns the 'real' artwork - the guy with it on their wall, or the guy with the bits?
  - mattnewton 6y ago
    This seems no different from a fungible document in that regard. The trust is still with a verifying third party.

mattnewton 6y ago

Doesn’t provenance need to be proven outside of the blockchain by some experts or something though? And then written down into the blockchain? It seems like the same problem with a different “authority”

chrisco255 6y ago
But that only has to occur once with the blockchain. Once it is encoded, and recognized to be authentic, the record will remain. Transfers will be recorded perfectly in the ledger. With physical items, the provenance has to be determined independently every single exchange.
- skissane 6y ago
  The physical item still has to be examined by experts on every exchange, if you want to avoid the risk that the legitimate owner of the real thing sells a fake and secretly keeps the real item for themselves. The blockchain can't stop that.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    NFTs are generally being used for digital art at this time. Physical art of course still has this requirement.
    - lottin 6y ago
      But authenticity is only a concern in physical art.
      - chrisco255 6y ago
        No, it's not. It's even more of a concern in digital art because until blockchains came around, it was virtually free to make a perfect digital copy of something.
        skissane 6y ago
        What does it mean to own a digital artwork? To own the copyright in it? Blockchain doesn't really do much here because ownership of copyrights is determined by the legal system not by a blockchain. (And normally when an artist sells an artwork they keep the copyright themselves; you only get the copyright too if you specifically negotiate with the artist for that, or if you commission the art as a "work-for-hire".) To own the only digital copy of it? Blockchain does nothing to stop people making more digital copies of it. Blockchain is not a DRM system. It seems like "owning" digital art where one doesn't have the copyright or exclusive possession of digital copies is basically a meaningless form of ownership. It is the status of "ownership" stripped of all substantive content.
        chrisco255 6y ago
        Of course it does. The NFT is created and recognized by the artist's public Ethereum address which can only be generated by their private key. Full rights can be attached to the artwork, as was done with the Hashmasks sale: https://www.thehashmasks.com/ https://www.thehashmasks.com/ It is completely up to the artist to customize. It can be embedded into an NFT just like a license.md file can be embedded into an open source code repository. It can be explicit, rights can be transferable, or non-transferable. Any other address producing an NFT is a forgery. Blockchain is better than a DRM system. See: https://audius.org/developers https://audius.org/developers https://opensea.io/blog/announcements/opensea-raises-2-million/ https://opensea.io/blog/announcements/opensea-raises-2-milli... https://eulerbeats.com/ https://eulerbeats.com/
        lottin 6y ago
        You seem deeply confused. Making perfect digital copies is not something that is prevented by blockchains. Computers make perfect digital copies. If you want to prevent people from making perfect digital copies you have to get rid of computers, and good luck with that!
- phs318u 6y ago
  Pardon my ignorance re: NFT's, but does anyone verify the status of the person creating the NFT as the owner/creator of the digital art/item in question?
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    Marketplaces like OpenSeas, Nifty Gateway, Rarible, and Zora do work to verify known artists. But not all artists have a reputation, so surely there is risk among some of the NFTs out there. However, the price for unverified NFTs from unknown artists is usually reflective of that risk.
    - capiki 6y ago
      So... at the end of the day, it’s still centralized?
- Taniwha 6y ago
  And if somewhere down that chain someone sells the real artwork to one person and the NFT to someone else? who owns the 'real' artwork - the guy with it on their wall, or the guy with the bits?
- mattnewton 6y ago
  This seems no different from a fungible document in that regard. The trust is still with a verifying third party.