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> Because it's programmable. I'm a programmer. I like things to be programmable. This is not sufficient on its own. It's possible to have a programmable keyboa

> Because it's programmable. I'm a programmer. I like things to be programmable. This is not sufficient on its own. It's possible to have a programmable keyboard that has no screen. It's also possible to have a programmable screen that doesn't take over the function row (a row that has existed since the earliest days of computing). > I've got no hope of remembering what a key like F6 means in a given context - it's a meaningless number This doesn't make sense to me at all. Do you use keyboard shortcuts in the apps you use? How does Ctrl-Alt-Shift-V hit you? What about vim or emacs bindings? We memorize a large number of things that are just as 'meaningless' as F6, so I'm struggling to get on board with this take. > The Touch Bar lets me have context-sensitive keys I can actually understand and use. As a touch typist, the changing context of a position on that row means I can no longer rely on my memory of the position of the key. I have to re-learn the meaning of that position for every app that uses that position for some other purpose. For me, this is just as insurmountable as F6 is for you.

chrisseaton 6y ago
> Do you use keyboard shortcuts in the apps you use? Not really. If they're presented to me via the Touch Bar then yes. > How does Ctrl-Alt-Shift-V hit you? Never heard of it! Doesn't sound very intuitive! What do all those keys mean and why are those in that order and how do you discover them? If it was on the Touch Bar I could just see the icon and discover it and learn the muscle memory. > What about vim or emacs bindings? But I don't use these editors. And why do they need special bindings anyway? > We memorize a large number of things that are just as 'meaningless' as F6, so I'm struggling to get on board with this take. Seems like it should be the computer's job to memorise things, not mine? I don't want to rote learn F6 = step-over in my debugger. That's not a good use of my time. I want an icon I can see when I look for a function key, then learn the muscle memory to keep hitting. 'F6' means nothing to me. Where am I supposed to look that up? In a manual? I don't want these kind of context-switches. > As a touch typist, the changing context of a position on that row means I can no longer rely on my memory of the position of the key. The keys don't move on the Touch Bar. If you're using muscle memory they're in the same place each time so you're fine and there's no problem!
- EForEndeavour 6y ago
  > 'F6' means nothing to me. Where am I supposed to look that up? In a manual? I don't want these kind of context-switches. Yes. Yes, you are meant to look up the keyboard shortcuts of software programs in their manual, or Google them, or otherwise RTFM. It's part of learning one's tools. Speaking from personal experience, the critical importance of memorizing keyboard shortcuts was drilled into me by years of PC gaming as a kid and teen. (Imagine playing StarCraft with just the mouse... Ugh.) I wonder if people who grew up with computer games are more likely to embrace keyboard shortcuts later in life.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > It's part of learning one's tools. Why don’t the tools learn me? Learn to show me buttons that I’d want to use in the right context? Why are the tools so broken that they need to be learned rather than being intuitive? I feel I’m pretty productive without learning archaic key combinations. Typing is rarely my bottleneck - thinking is. What am I missing? What makes it worth learning these spells? (Yes I don’t play or know anything about computer games - maybe that’s it.)
    - EForEndeavour 6y ago
      Because "why don't the tools learn me" describes a perfect world, a fantastical end state worth working toward, but which we just don't live in yet. It's akin to questioning why we still bother with locks on doors when burglary and theft are solved problems in a post-scarcity society. I'd love better design, UX, and discoverability in all software tools everywhere, but the grim reality is that this just isn't the case and won't be for many years. Until then, I can say again from personal experience that it was well worth it for me to Google the keyboard shortcuts for terminal cursor movements, greatly reducing friction between me and my filesystem. Similarly, occasionally bringing up the VSCode or RStudio keyboard shortcuts reference windows is well worth it to reduce the friction between my thoughts and my results. It's like going from hunt-and-peck typing ("why can't the input device just learn how to understand my speech?") to touch-typing faster than you can write by hand. Come to think of it, resistance to plentiful keyboard shortcuts is not something I would have expected to read on HN of all places, yet here we are! tab enter

chrisseaton 6y ago

> Do you use keyboard shortcuts in the apps you use? Not really. If they're presented to me via the Touch Bar then yes. > How does Ctrl-Alt-Shift-V hit you? Never heard of it! Doesn't sound very intuitive! What do all those keys mean and why are those in that order and how do you discover them? If it was on the Touch Bar I could just see the icon and discover it and learn the muscle memory. > What about vim or emacs bindings? But I don't use these editors. And why do they need special bindings anyway? > We memorize a large number of things that are just as 'meaningless' as F6, so I'm struggling to get on board with this take. Seems like it should be the computer's job to memorise things, not mine? I don't want to rote learn F6 = step-over in my debugger. That's not a good use of my time. I want an icon I can see when I look for a function key, then learn the muscle memory to keep hitting. 'F6' means nothing to me. Where am I supposed to look that up? In a manual? I don't want these kind of context-switches. > As a touch typist, the changing context of a position on that row means I can no longer rely on my memory of the position of the key. The keys don't move on the Touch Bar. If you're using muscle memory they're in the same place each time so you're fine and there's no problem!

EForEndeavour 6y ago
> 'F6' means nothing to me. Where am I supposed to look that up? In a manual? I don't want these kind of context-switches. Yes. Yes, you are meant to look up the keyboard shortcuts of software programs in their manual, or Google them, or otherwise RTFM. It's part of learning one's tools. Speaking from personal experience, the critical importance of memorizing keyboard shortcuts was drilled into me by years of PC gaming as a kid and teen. (Imagine playing StarCraft with just the mouse... Ugh.) I wonder if people who grew up with computer games are more likely to embrace keyboard shortcuts later in life.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > It's part of learning one's tools. Why don’t the tools learn me? Learn to show me buttons that I’d want to use in the right context? Why are the tools so broken that they need to be learned rather than being intuitive? I feel I’m pretty productive without learning archaic key combinations. Typing is rarely my bottleneck - thinking is. What am I missing? What makes it worth learning these spells? (Yes I don’t play or know anything about computer games - maybe that’s it.)
  - EForEndeavour 6y ago
    Because "why don't the tools learn me" describes a perfect world, a fantastical end state worth working toward, but which we just don't live in yet. It's akin to questioning why we still bother with locks on doors when burglary and theft are solved problems in a post-scarcity society. I'd love better design, UX, and discoverability in all software tools everywhere, but the grim reality is that this just isn't the case and won't be for many years. Until then, I can say again from personal experience that it was well worth it for me to Google the keyboard shortcuts for terminal cursor movements, greatly reducing friction between me and my filesystem. Similarly, occasionally bringing up the VSCode or RStudio keyboard shortcuts reference windows is well worth it to reduce the friction between my thoughts and my results. It's like going from hunt-and-peck typing ("why can't the input device just learn how to understand my speech?") to touch-typing faster than you can write by hand. Come to think of it, resistance to plentiful keyboard shortcuts is not something I would have expected to read on HN of all places, yet here we are! tab enter