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This was my initial reaction as well, because I absolutely loathe the touch bar. One thing I've been pondering - I've been asking myself: "why on earth would s

This was my initial reaction as well, because I absolutely loathe the touch bar. One thing I've been pondering - I've been asking myself: "why on earth would someone actually like the touchbar...ever?". And I wonder if the answer has something to do with the new generation of technologists. The generation that has been using touch on phones/tablets from the beginning of their technology journey. I have no idea if this has merit, but as someone who hasn't looked at a keyboard while typing in two decades (unless it has a touchbar), that's the only thing I can imagine. Maybe I'd be ok with it if I grew up with it.

chrisseaton 6y ago
> "why on earth would someone actually like the touchbar...ever?" Because it's programmable. I'm a programmer. I like things to be programmable. I've got no hope of remembering what a key like F6 means in a given context - it's a meaningless number. The Touch Bar lets me have context-sensitive keys I can actually understand and use.
- geerlingguy 6y ago
  Back in the ancient times, people would put overlays on their keyboards... some still do, for things like DAW editing stations, video editing, etc. :)
  - eh9 6y ago
    Can’t wait for all the keys to be programmable screens that show shortcuts based on context.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      Yeah that'd probably be the best of all.
- cosmotic 6y ago
  I know what the commonly used F-keys do for tasks I perform often. They are just as context-sensitive as the touch bar, except they don't display the action on the key. You're trading that display for tactile feedback that there's a key there you can press and that the key press was registered. Seems like putting a screen in the keyboard would satisfy both, but wouldn't satisfy the slider use cases.
  - haswell 6y ago
    The Optimus Maximus [0] keyboard comes to mind. Pair this kind of tech with one or two dedicated slider controls placed somewhere else on the keyboard, and I think you have the best of both worlds. - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard
- haswell 6y ago
  > Because it's programmable. I'm a programmer. I like things to be programmable. This is not sufficient on its own. It's possible to have a programmable keyboard that has no screen. It's also possible to have a programmable screen that doesn't take over the function row (a row that has existed since the earliest days of computing). > I've got no hope of remembering what a key like F6 means in a given context - it's a meaningless number This doesn't make sense to me at all. Do you use keyboard shortcuts in the apps you use? How does Ctrl-Alt-Shift-V hit you? What about vim or emacs bindings? We memorize a large number of things that are just as 'meaningless' as F6, so I'm struggling to get on board with this take. > The Touch Bar lets me have context-sensitive keys I can actually understand and use. As a touch typist, the changing context of a position on that row means I can no longer rely on my memory of the position of the key. I have to re-learn the meaning of that position for every app that uses that position for some other purpose. For me, this is just as insurmountable as F6 is for you.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Do you use keyboard shortcuts in the apps you use? Not really. If they're presented to me via the Touch Bar then yes. > How does Ctrl-Alt-Shift-V hit you? Never heard of it! Doesn't sound very intuitive! What do all those keys mean and why are those in that order and how do you discover them? If it was on the Touch Bar I could just see the icon and discover it and learn the muscle memory. > What about vim or emacs bindings? But I don't use these editors. And why do they need special bindings anyway? > We memorize a large number of things that are just as 'meaningless' as F6, so I'm struggling to get on board with this take. Seems like it should be the computer's job to memorise things, not mine? I don't want to rote learn F6 = step-over in my debugger. That's not a good use of my time. I want an icon I can see when I look for a function key, then learn the muscle memory to keep hitting. 'F6' means nothing to me. Where am I supposed to look that up? In a manual? I don't want these kind of context-switches. > As a touch typist, the changing context of a position on that row means I can no longer rely on my memory of the position of the key. The keys don't move on the Touch Bar. If you're using muscle memory they're in the same place each time so you're fine and there's no problem!
    - 6y ago
canthonytucci 6y ago
I am a vim user for many years who loves the Touch Bar now that I have my escape key back. I like adjusting brightness and volume with a slider. You can tap and hold the brightness or volume icon on the touch bar and slide it to where you want. Repeatedly tapping physical buttons feels vulgar by comparison. I like seeing the progress and having transport controls of my full screen videos. I like having the little animation draw my attention when I can use touchid for something. In general it feels futuristic, fun, and like a way better use of the space than physical keys that I would almost never use. If you’re someone who uses the function keys (JetBrains users maybe?) I can see feeling the same way I did about esc. To me, using function keys is un-apple-ish. I have command, control, and option keys that allow me to be quite expressive without moving my hands away from the home area of the board. Perhaps those with larger hands can reach the function keys without disrupting their positioning. For me it is not possible. At that point I may as well reach for a mouse or a touchpad.
- haswell 6y ago
  This response is fascinating to me, primarily because my personal preference is almost completely the opposite. One thing that strikes me though: of the things you mentioned that you like about the touchbar, many of them don't necessarily need to live in that area of the keyboard. I should also clarify one thing: I do like that the touchbar can visualize things in context (and I find the things you mentioned cool), but I wouldn't choose that over the physical keys. For me, the perfect middle ground would be a bar above the function row that doesn't try to be both things. Or perhaps somewhere else entirely (to the right or left of the trackpad?) > Perhaps those with larger hands can reach the function keys without disrupting their positioning. For me it is not possible. This could be part of the issue as well. I can reach without issue, but I can understand why this doesn't work for everyone.
  - canthonytucci 6y ago
    Both would be nice, or an option (heaven forbid!) I am surprised Apple even tried to get us all to like the Touch Bar after how much people disliked the "Adaptive keyboard"* on 2nd gen x1 carbons. I definitely resented mine. * https://arstechnica.com/staff/2014/01/stop-trying-to-innovate-keyboards-youre-just-making-them-worse/ https://arstechnica.com/staff/2014/01/stop-trying-to-innovat...
emkoemko 6y ago
i can't see how... touch has so many downsides vs a feedback physical button. One day maybe we will get best of both worlds dynamic buttons that morph the screen so you get tactile feeling of buttons and no actuation until they are physically pushed. its like how roku tv offers remote control app for phones.. vs a physical device that you can change volume, channels etc without even looking at the device and in the dark, every time i used the app i had to see where to press couldn't do it blindly because i had no idea if i was pushing anything or the wrong button. How can anyone like touch interfaces if it could be done with physical buttons?

chrisseaton 6y ago

> "why on earth would someone actually like the touchbar...ever?" Because it's programmable. I'm a programmer. I like things to be programmable. I've got no hope of remembering what a key like F6 means in a given context - it's a meaningless number. The Touch Bar lets me have context-sensitive keys I can actually understand and use.

geerlingguy 6y ago
Back in the ancient times, people would put overlays on their keyboards... some still do, for things like DAW editing stations, video editing, etc. :)
- eh9 6y ago
  Can’t wait for all the keys to be programmable screens that show shortcuts based on context.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    Yeah that'd probably be the best of all.
cosmotic 6y ago
I know what the commonly used F-keys do for tasks I perform often. They are just as context-sensitive as the touch bar, except they don't display the action on the key. You're trading that display for tactile feedback that there's a key there you can press and that the key press was registered. Seems like putting a screen in the keyboard would satisfy both, but wouldn't satisfy the slider use cases.
- haswell 6y ago
  The Optimus Maximus [0] keyboard comes to mind. Pair this kind of tech with one or two dedicated slider controls placed somewhere else on the keyboard, and I think you have the best of both worlds. - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard
haswell 6y ago
> Because it's programmable. I'm a programmer. I like things to be programmable. This is not sufficient on its own. It's possible to have a programmable keyboard that has no screen. It's also possible to have a programmable screen that doesn't take over the function row (a row that has existed since the earliest days of computing). > I've got no hope of remembering what a key like F6 means in a given context - it's a meaningless number This doesn't make sense to me at all. Do you use keyboard shortcuts in the apps you use? How does Ctrl-Alt-Shift-V hit you? What about vim or emacs bindings? We memorize a large number of things that are just as 'meaningless' as F6, so I'm struggling to get on board with this take. > The Touch Bar lets me have context-sensitive keys I can actually understand and use. As a touch typist, the changing context of a position on that row means I can no longer rely on my memory of the position of the key. I have to re-learn the meaning of that position for every app that uses that position for some other purpose. For me, this is just as insurmountable as F6 is for you.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Do you use keyboard shortcuts in the apps you use? Not really. If they're presented to me via the Touch Bar then yes. > How does Ctrl-Alt-Shift-V hit you? Never heard of it! Doesn't sound very intuitive! What do all those keys mean and why are those in that order and how do you discover them? If it was on the Touch Bar I could just see the icon and discover it and learn the muscle memory. > What about vim or emacs bindings? But I don't use these editors. And why do they need special bindings anyway? > We memorize a large number of things that are just as 'meaningless' as F6, so I'm struggling to get on board with this take. Seems like it should be the computer's job to memorise things, not mine? I don't want to rote learn F6 = step-over in my debugger. That's not a good use of my time. I want an icon I can see when I look for a function key, then learn the muscle memory to keep hitting. 'F6' means nothing to me. Where am I supposed to look that up? In a manual? I don't want these kind of context-switches. > As a touch typist, the changing context of a position on that row means I can no longer rely on my memory of the position of the key. The keys don't move on the Touch Bar. If you're using muscle memory they're in the same place each time so you're fine and there's no problem!
  - 6y ago

canthonytucci 6y ago

I am a vim user for many years who loves the Touch Bar now that I have my escape key back. I like adjusting brightness and volume with a slider. You can tap and hold the brightness or volume icon on the touch bar and slide it to where you want. Repeatedly tapping physical buttons feels vulgar by comparison. I like seeing the progress and having transport controls of my full screen videos. I like having the little animation draw my attention when I can use touchid for something. In general it feels futuristic, fun, and like a way better use of the space than physical keys that I would almost never use. If you’re someone who uses the function keys (JetBrains users maybe?) I can see feeling the same way I did about esc. To me, using function keys is un-apple-ish. I have command, control, and option keys that allow me to be quite expressive without moving my hands away from the home area of the board. Perhaps those with larger hands can reach the function keys without disrupting their positioning. For me it is not possible. At that point I may as well reach for a mouse or a touchpad.

haswell 6y ago
This response is fascinating to me, primarily because my personal preference is almost completely the opposite. One thing that strikes me though: of the things you mentioned that you like about the touchbar, many of them don't necessarily need to live in that area of the keyboard. I should also clarify one thing: I do like that the touchbar can visualize things in context (and I find the things you mentioned cool), but I wouldn't choose that over the physical keys. For me, the perfect middle ground would be a bar above the function row that doesn't try to be both things. Or perhaps somewhere else entirely (to the right or left of the trackpad?) > Perhaps those with larger hands can reach the function keys without disrupting their positioning. For me it is not possible. This could be part of the issue as well. I can reach without issue, but I can understand why this doesn't work for everyone.
- canthonytucci 6y ago
  Both would be nice, or an option (heaven forbid!) I am surprised Apple even tried to get us all to like the Touch Bar after how much people disliked the "Adaptive keyboard"* on 2nd gen x1 carbons. I definitely resented mine. * https://arstechnica.com/staff/2014/01/stop-trying-to-innovate-keyboards-youre-just-making-them-worse/ https://arstechnica.com/staff/2014/01/stop-trying-to-innovat...

emkoemko 6y ago

i can't see how... touch has so many downsides vs a feedback physical button. One day maybe we will get best of both worlds dynamic buttons that morph the screen so you get tactile feeling of buttons and no actuation until they are physically pushed. its like how roku tv offers remote control app for phones.. vs a physical device that you can change volume, channels etc without even looking at the device and in the dark, every time i used the app i had to see where to press couldn't do it blindly because i had no idea if i was pushing anything or the wrong button. How can anyone like touch interfaces if it could be done with physical buttons?