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I think he's glossing over the obvious. A friend of mine was just reminiscing about growing up in her family's dairy farm. Every Saturday morning, every Sunda

I think he's glossing over the obvious. A friend of mine was just reminiscing about growing up in her family's dairy farm. Every Saturday morning, every Sunday morning, every Christmas you get up to take care of the cows. Feel sick? You've got to get up and take care of the cows. Want to go on vacation? Can't, there's no one you can leave the cows with. It's a hard life - maybe a satisfying life in some ways but there are a lot of sacrifices. The author points out that only one of his brothers wanted to take over the dairy. He doesn't point out that without that one brother with the insane work ethic the farm would have shut down years ago. It's not a sustainable business model.

mitjak 6y ago
what a strange point. "the obvious" is not that there's concentration of power but that farming is hard? what about small farms where many people are happy to continue working because they find it fulfilling?
- nineplay 6y ago
  The "obvious" is that operating a family farm as a profitable business is hard. Harder than three of the four adult children in the article are willing to work. That doesn't mean there aren't people who want to do it, that means that a lot of family farms are going out of business because there aren't enough people who want to do it, regardless of external pressures.
  - mitjak 6y ago
    that conclusion doesn't necessarily follow though. the proposed thesis by the article author is difficulty of having enough cattle to break even. you need to make enough to grow your operation, which is difficult given that you rely on external factors like creameries. the only reason you only have your family's labour to rely on could also be the difficulty of scaling up.
    - nineplay 6y ago
      I think the article writer is glossing over the difficulty of keeping a farm in business without the external factors. My experience, growing up in an farming area, is that the kids of farmers are relieved when the farm is sold to a big conglomerate. If the author cared so much about the farm, nothing stopped him from going back and dedicating his life to keeping it running.
      - mitjak 6y ago
        apologies if i'm coming across condescending or am missing your point but i'm having difficulty comprehending how the author staying on the farm would've fixed anything about the trend towards monopolization fuelled by corporate subsidies and other forms of preferential treatment coupled with those larger actors facing limited responsibility for any of the consequences to surrounding communities and environment?
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  Anyone who enjoys their job should work for free? How are they meant to pay bills? What are you saying?
  - mitjak 6y ago
    im providing a counter-example to the OP's point, and saying that people choosing not to remain farmers is not a sufficient explanation for decline in the number of small farms. the author clearly proposes many other reasons. see other responses to the message.
xipho 6y ago
You seem to equate hard work ethic with sustainability, this is false. You obviously have never experienced the joys of winters with nothing todo except read, learn, cook and play, because you worked insanely hard on the farm for 6-8 months of the growing season (being your own boss, but who cares about that).
- nineplay 6y ago
  At risk of stating the obvious, dairy cows do not have a growing season. Cows are a 365 days-a-year commitment.
  - xipho 6y ago
    My grandfather had a dairy barn, I'm aware of this. The community around it rebuilt it when it was burned, looked after it when he travelled across the country etc. Was it hard? Certainly. To suggest his (and his families) life was somehow less joyous than a 9-5 hacking l33t code all year is insanity.
    - nineplay 6y ago
      The writer of the articles was very clear that _he_ found farming less joyous than "9-5 hacking l33t code". Your argument is more with him than with me. The writer's other two siblings also found more "joyous" things to do. It isn't for everyone, and that is going to continue to be the reason that they can't survive against Big Ag.
      - xipho 6y ago
        Right. I don't have an argument with the writer, its a wonderful article, spot on. Yes my families work was largely pre-big ag. Nothing is for everyone. The trigger that looped me in here was the "not sustainable because hard work", I drifted to tangents too quickly.
        nineplay 6y ago
snarf21 6y ago
I always joke with people that farming is a great half time job, just pick which 12 hours you want to work. I also think the only people that want to start farming are those that have never done it.
- HeyLaughingBoy 6y ago
  Haha, right. I run into people on reddit all the time who idealize life on a farm. Right up until I remind them that even if it's -20F and blowing snow horizontally and you're sick with the flu, you still have to go out and take care of the animals.
- reddog 6y ago
  Also, according to the BLS, one of the 10 most dangerous jobs in the country. If met plenty of farmers that have missing pieces.
jbroson 6y ago
I'm pretty sure the fact that it's impossible to turn a profit in any of the "family" small scale dairy farms is a little more important than how hard the work is. And hard back-breaking work is not unique to farming. Plenty of restaurants or other small businesses basically run off owners and family giving dozens of hours of labor every week "for free"
- nineplay 6y ago
  The author didn't want to work on the farm regardless of profit. 2 out of 3 of his brother didn't want to work on the farm regardless of profit. My friend would never go back to a farming life, nor would any of her siblings or cousins. It's just too much work in a world where there are a lot of fun things to do with your spare time. My friend mentors 4H students, but she also takes off on scuba-diving trips several times a year.
  - jbroson 6y ago
    The proximate cause of the failing farm was that it's impossible to turn a profit! They had a family member willing to do the hard work! "hard work" had absolutely nothing to do with this particular farm failing. This isn't rocket science guys, I don't know why people insist on conjuring up phantoms to argue with.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  > I'm pretty sure the fact that it's impossible to turn a profit in any of the "family" small scale dairy farms is a little more important than how hard the work is. Why exactly is that important? I could not turn a profit running a family plastic casting business in the U.S. either. It's just not something that can be done competitively on a small scale. Seems like milk production isn't either. That's sad for people who want to do that as a profession. It's also sad that writing doesn't pay enough to employ everyone who wants to be writers, painting everyone who would rather paint, etc. Why is that a policy problem (besides the need to ensure these people have a soft landing in a destination profession that is economically viable)?
  - 6y ago
PicassoCTs 6y ago
Bread and games rarely make for good business-models. A lack of bread makes for food riots, so even the most dysfunctional states keep that resource over-flowing and artificially under price pressures. In germany you are not even allowed by law, to convert surplus grain into energy by burning it. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getreideverbrennung#Deutschland https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getreideverbrennung#Deutschlan... For fermenting it you need a expensive license. Nobody is even pretending that this is a free market and even the most hardcore Neo-libertarians do not call for it regarding food. The price fluctuations visible are usually the pearl-diving. All market participants dive for the pearls, aka the lowest possible price and hold their breath. Those who cant keep up, float to the top and are devoured by those who are still alive. Every round there are fewer and fewer small participants. Rinse and repeat, until only a few monopolistic giants are able to establish a price cartel.

mitjak 6y ago

what a strange point. "the obvious" is not that there's concentration of power but that farming is hard? what about small farms where many people are happy to continue working because they find it fulfilling?

nineplay 6y ago
The "obvious" is that operating a family farm as a profitable business is hard. Harder than three of the four adult children in the article are willing to work. That doesn't mean there aren't people who want to do it, that means that a lot of family farms are going out of business because there aren't enough people who want to do it, regardless of external pressures.
- mitjak 6y ago
  that conclusion doesn't necessarily follow though. the proposed thesis by the article author is difficulty of having enough cattle to break even. you need to make enough to grow your operation, which is difficult given that you rely on external factors like creameries. the only reason you only have your family's labour to rely on could also be the difficulty of scaling up.
  - nineplay 6y ago
    I think the article writer is glossing over the difficulty of keeping a farm in business without the external factors. My experience, growing up in an farming area, is that the kids of farmers are relieved when the farm is sold to a big conglomerate. If the author cared so much about the farm, nothing stopped him from going back and dedicating his life to keeping it running.
    - mitjak 6y ago
      apologies if i'm coming across condescending or am missing your point but i'm having difficulty comprehending how the author staying on the farm would've fixed anything about the trend towards monopolization fuelled by corporate subsidies and other forms of preferential treatment coupled with those larger actors facing limited responsibility for any of the consequences to surrounding communities and environment?
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Anyone who enjoys their job should work for free? How are they meant to pay bills? What are you saying?
- mitjak 6y ago
  im providing a counter-example to the OP's point, and saying that people choosing not to remain farmers is not a sufficient explanation for decline in the number of small farms. the author clearly proposes many other reasons. see other responses to the message.

xipho 6y ago

You seem to equate hard work ethic with sustainability, this is false. You obviously have never experienced the joys of winters with nothing todo except read, learn, cook and play, because you worked insanely hard on the farm for 6-8 months of the growing season (being your own boss, but who cares about that).

nineplay 6y ago
At risk of stating the obvious, dairy cows do not have a growing season. Cows are a 365 days-a-year commitment.
- xipho 6y ago
  My grandfather had a dairy barn, I'm aware of this. The community around it rebuilt it when it was burned, looked after it when he travelled across the country etc. Was it hard? Certainly. To suggest his (and his families) life was somehow less joyous than a 9-5 hacking l33t code all year is insanity.
  - nineplay 6y ago
    The writer of the articles was very clear that _he_ found farming less joyous than "9-5 hacking l33t code". Your argument is more with him than with me. The writer's other two siblings also found more "joyous" things to do. It isn't for everyone, and that is going to continue to be the reason that they can't survive against Big Ag.
    - xipho 6y ago
      Right. I don't have an argument with the writer, its a wonderful article, spot on. Yes my families work was largely pre-big ag. Nothing is for everyone. The trigger that looped me in here was the "not sustainable because hard work", I drifted to tangents too quickly.
      - nineplay 6y ago

snarf21 6y ago

I always joke with people that farming is a great half time job, just pick which 12 hours you want to work. I also think the only people that want to start farming are those that have never done it.

HeyLaughingBoy 6y ago
Haha, right. I run into people on reddit all the time who idealize life on a farm. Right up until I remind them that even if it's -20F and blowing snow horizontally and you're sick with the flu, you still have to go out and take care of the animals.
reddog 6y ago
Also, according to the BLS, one of the 10 most dangerous jobs in the country. If met plenty of farmers that have missing pieces.

jbroson 6y ago

I'm pretty sure the fact that it's impossible to turn a profit in any of the "family" small scale dairy farms is a little more important than how hard the work is. And hard back-breaking work is not unique to farming. Plenty of restaurants or other small businesses basically run off owners and family giving dozens of hours of labor every week "for free"

nineplay 6y ago
The author didn't want to work on the farm regardless of profit. 2 out of 3 of his brother didn't want to work on the farm regardless of profit. My friend would never go back to a farming life, nor would any of her siblings or cousins. It's just too much work in a world where there are a lot of fun things to do with your spare time. My friend mentors 4H students, but she also takes off on scuba-diving trips several times a year.
- jbroson 6y ago
  The proximate cause of the failing farm was that it's impossible to turn a profit! They had a family member willing to do the hard work! "hard work" had absolutely nothing to do with this particular farm failing. This isn't rocket science guys, I don't know why people insist on conjuring up phantoms to argue with.
asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
> I'm pretty sure the fact that it's impossible to turn a profit in any of the "family" small scale dairy farms is a little more important than how hard the work is. Why exactly is that important? I could not turn a profit running a family plastic casting business in the U.S. either. It's just not something that can be done competitively on a small scale. Seems like milk production isn't either. That's sad for people who want to do that as a profession. It's also sad that writing doesn't pay enough to employ everyone who wants to be writers, painting everyone who would rather paint, etc. Why is that a policy problem (besides the need to ensure these people have a soft landing in a destination profession that is economically viable)?
- 6y ago

PicassoCTs 6y ago

Bread and games rarely make for good business-models. A lack of bread makes for food riots, so even the most dysfunctional states keep that resource over-flowing and artificially under price pressures. In germany you are not even allowed by law, to convert surplus grain into energy by burning it. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getreideverbrennung#Deutschland https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getreideverbrennung#Deutschlan... For fermenting it you need a expensive license. Nobody is even pretending that this is a free market and even the most hardcore Neo-libertarians do not call for it regarding food. The price fluctuations visible are usually the pearl-diving. All market participants dive for the pearls, aka the lowest possible price and hold their breath. Those who cant keep up, float to the top and are devoured by those who are still alive. Every round there are fewer and fewer small participants. Rinse and repeat, until only a few monopolistic giants are able to establish a price cartel.