4 ms·

I once was volunteering at an event. I was having a causal conversation with another guy and after a while he asked me my last name and decided to not indulge i

I once was volunteering at an event. I was having a causal conversation with another guy and after a while he asked me my last name and decided to not indulge in any further conversation anymore. This is one of many instances I experienced. There is a paper about caste oppression. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3725938 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3725938

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
Thank you for sharing this. While it is apparent that US job market is not a meritocracy, it simply cannot allow ( hell, afford ) to import bad practices from afar.
- iamshs 6y ago
  It is already in US and is being defended by Hindu organizations with reason like - ‘Caste discrimination is a Hindu right that should go unchallenged’ https://twitter.com/YashicaDutt/status/1369314943061856261 https://twitter.com/YashicaDutt/status/1369314943061856261
  - ashneo76 6y ago
    As a Hindu, I am ashamed. I am glad to not be part of any such orgs. This is despicable. US cannot afford to continue this.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      The tweet does not substantiate its claims, at least not that I can see due to the source being paywalled.
  - naravara 6y ago
    That sounds like an uncharitable interpretation of what HAF said, but I can't verify because they never link to the source statement and the article she points at is behind a paywall. Come to think of it this "Attribute quotes to people and then say 'read the (paywalled) article' when someone asks for context" strategy seems like a pretty good way to spread misinformation. Edit: Okay did some googling and found the source statement. That tweet is definitely a very bad faith misreading of HAF's statement which says: > In its complaint, California argues that Cisco failed to address discrimination against one of its engineers by co-workers on the basis of his presumed caste. California goes on to state that caste is “a strict Hindu social and religious hierarchy” and therefore an integral part of Hindu teachings and practices. Framing its argument in this way, California is attempting to do what the Constitution clearly says it cannot, HAF said: defining Hindu religious doctrine for Hindus. In other words, HAF isn't saying discrimination is a Hindu right. They're saying it's inappropriate for US Courts to define what constitutes "Hindu belief systems." This sounds appropriate since setting precedent in a court that defines anyone who professes belief in Hinduism as being casteist a priori would basically be opening the door to religious discrimination.
    - iamshs 6y ago
      HAF is saying exactly that. The case wants to make sure caste discrimination gets explicitly mentioned, but HAF is bringing in Hinduism angle and saying don't define Hinduism for us. You see the obfuscation here, they are doing? They are trying to defend casteism in a round about way. HAF is founded by Upper Caste Hindus hence they are invested in this matter to make sure the case does not set a precedent for them.
    - FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
      I see, thanks for digging. This would be like a court saying "violent conquest, and religious discrimination in the tax system, are inherent parts of Islam enshrined in the Quran", or "theocratic Zionism and the killing of gentiles are core parts of Judaism that are sanctioned in the Torah". In both cases, with a fundamentalist reading, you'd be right, but it's really up to Muslims and to Jews to interpret their own religions (and to interpret their way away from bad parts of their texts), not for the legal system to do. And it's kind of anti-Hindu to choose the most unsympathetic (to an American) reading of Hinduism to be the "official" one. It would be like saying that right-wing "Christian nationalism" is the "true" Christianity. The only people who would agree would be people outside Christianity who hate it, and the right wingers themselves. And in the case of "Hinduism" this is extra complicated, because there is no central authority, and barely even a core "religion" in the manner of monotheisms. "Hinduism" barely exists (some people say it's just a word invented by the Britishers); it's a loose confederation of Shaivism, Vaishnavism, etc; it's amorphous. It's hard to say what is and isn't a "core belief". Whenever you try to grasp it, it will slip out of your hand.
  - FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
    To defend the "bad guy" for a second: In fairness to the HAF here, that "quote" is not a quote at all, but an uncharitable paraphrasing. If you're going to quote that "summary", it'd be best to also include a direct quote from the HAF along with it, so you appear fairer. Otherwise people will feel tricked and dismiss your argument.
    - iamshs 6y ago
      Only if you had read the article where it is addressed in detail. Your colored language notwithstanding ("uncharitable paraphrasing"), the statement is actually an accurate summary by a well respected researcher on Dalit issues, of what HAF is doing here. https://thewire.in/caste/cisco-case-caste-discrimination-silicon-valley-ambedkar-organisations https://thewire.in/caste/cisco-case-caste-discrimination-sil... Here is another good article which says the same and the dubious role HAF is playing in order to advance Hindu Upper Caste's systemic oppression. Please note, HAF is run by all Hindu Upper Caste people, and they are invested in this case so as to not set a precedent.
      - FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
        But I did read the article! On the surface, it seems that the HAF is inserting itself to argue a side point. The core issue is about whether caste is a protected category, and whether discrimination actually occurred at Cisco. HAF isn't really talking about that at all! Instead, they're just trying to make sure that court documents don't describe the caste system as "part of Hinduism". On the face of it, that doesn't seem so bad. Now, I do see that some people view this as a diversionary tactic by the HAF, and that it should not to be taken at face value: > According to Anil Wagde of the Ambedkar International Center, HAF’s intervention is an attempt to obfuscate the matter and confuse the court. It seems you also do not take HAF's objections at face value? But on the surface, their demands are -- a little distracting, but basically orthogonal. It feels like the solution to this is to say, "fine, we'll change the language used here (i.e., the description of Hinduism), and then get on with dealing with the core issue (i.e., the discrimination)".
iamshs 6y ago
I was visiting a professor in Germany as part of my research work. One day the professor brought me five resumes and asked me who out of them were upper caste Hindus. I said all, why? So while doing her PhD she had an experience where a Brahmin refused to do experimental lab work as it was considered manual work which was beneath him. So professor first asks fellow Indians about applicants caste and then tailors her hiring process. There's also this tam-bram pat where people feel janeu (can be worn only by upper caste hindu men), you don't even have to ask last name... https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-caste-bias-silicon-valley/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-...
markus_zhang 6y ago
Yes I heard that too. Like you can tell from the name, or the length of the name, something. I think if India gets rid of that part most Indians should be pretty happy...
- notacoward 6y ago
  One of my Indian coworkers said you could tell a lot about someone from their last name. Family origin, for one, down to a pretty fine granularity. Caste, likewise. My closest Indian friend once asked me if I could guess his caste. I told him I wouldn't even try. He laughed and told me that any Indian would instantly recognize his last name as placing him not only as a Brahmin but at a specific position within caste. In fact he hides it a bit, going by last initial when he can. I think you're right that a lot of Indians would be glad to get out from under their last names.
  - markus_zhang 6y ago
    Yeah, just imagine how many talents are buried under that caste system...
  - naravara 6y ago
    Around independence many Indian families kind of chose their last names (or had a choice imposed on them, in the case of lower caste members). Surnames were kind of a European import and traditionally people were identified by a personal name and one of several specifying markers like their home village, their familial vocation, religion, or jati. The Jati-based names are the ones people are talking about as being identifying. People who weren't enthusiastic about their caste identity tended not to pick identifying names and would have named themselves after their hometown or something instead. But even that has some associations. A jati is what people talk about when they talk about 'caste.' They're sort of like large, extended kinship groups analogous to Clans in Scotland. These groups all have associated vocations akin to how in the West we have stereotypes like linking Jews with banking or Koreans with dry cleaning. There's all sorts of legal, practical, and historical reasons why these associations take hold. And since they have associated vocations, they have associated Socio-economic-status markers as well. It's not all that different from ethnic discrimination except more concentrated and formalized since it has a much longer history. Untouchability is kind of a special category. Those groups were sort of pre-designated as being outside the pale of polite society. This was largely informal and variegated around India but become codified around the late Gupta empire (around 500-600AD). There was still a sort of group or ethnicity-based form of social mobility around this time. My own jati, for example, would have been considered among the lowest of the low in antiquity but by the time of the British Raj they had became more of a "middle-tier" caste. This was much more common in South India than in the North where the lines were never very formalized or rigid. There are all sorts of records of geneologies being created to link caste groups to mythological heroes to raise their profiles. The British Raj--by creating a sub-continent-wide government, a census, and a literal-to-the-letter interpretation of Hindu law books that exaggerated the traditional influence and role of priestly castes--ended up hardening and ossifying these pre-existing cultural mores into hard rules that we're living with to this day. You notice a big difference in older diasporic Hindu communities, such as in the West Indies where Indians were brought over as bonded labor. Most high-caste brahmins absolutely did not go because of a superstition around losing your caste if you cross the ocean. BUT they still observe many of the same rituals and religious rites. It turns out there were low-caste/low-status mendicant priests around. They just weren't the high-status ones that the Raj and Western anthropologists talked to when they started defining what "Hinduism" is.
moistbar 6y ago
I remember an Indian work friend of mine angrily telling me about another employee who wouldn't stop harassing him on account of his last name and the caste it placed him in. This was at a Fortune 10 company and nothing was done about it.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago

Thank you for sharing this. While it is apparent that US job market is not a meritocracy, it simply cannot allow ( hell, afford ) to import bad practices from afar.

iamshs 6y ago
It is already in US and is being defended by Hindu organizations with reason like - ‘Caste discrimination is a Hindu right that should go unchallenged’ https://twitter.com/YashicaDutt/status/1369314943061856261 https://twitter.com/YashicaDutt/status/1369314943061856261
- ashneo76 6y ago
  As a Hindu, I am ashamed. I am glad to not be part of any such orgs. This is despicable. US cannot afford to continue this.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    The tweet does not substantiate its claims, at least not that I can see due to the source being paywalled.
- naravara 6y ago
  That sounds like an uncharitable interpretation of what HAF said, but I can't verify because they never link to the source statement and the article she points at is behind a paywall. Come to think of it this "Attribute quotes to people and then say 'read the (paywalled) article' when someone asks for context" strategy seems like a pretty good way to spread misinformation. Edit: Okay did some googling and found the source statement. That tweet is definitely a very bad faith misreading of HAF's statement which says: > In its complaint, California argues that Cisco failed to address discrimination against one of its engineers by co-workers on the basis of his presumed caste. California goes on to state that caste is “a strict Hindu social and religious hierarchy” and therefore an integral part of Hindu teachings and practices. Framing its argument in this way, California is attempting to do what the Constitution clearly says it cannot, HAF said: defining Hindu religious doctrine for Hindus. In other words, HAF isn't saying discrimination is a Hindu right. They're saying it's inappropriate for US Courts to define what constitutes "Hindu belief systems." This sounds appropriate since setting precedent in a court that defines anyone who professes belief in Hinduism as being casteist a priori would basically be opening the door to religious discrimination.
  - iamshs 6y ago
    HAF is saying exactly that. The case wants to make sure caste discrimination gets explicitly mentioned, but HAF is bringing in Hinduism angle and saying don't define Hinduism for us. You see the obfuscation here, they are doing? They are trying to defend casteism in a round about way. HAF is founded by Upper Caste Hindus hence they are invested in this matter to make sure the case does not set a precedent for them.
  - FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
    I see, thanks for digging. This would be like a court saying "violent conquest, and religious discrimination in the tax system, are inherent parts of Islam enshrined in the Quran", or "theocratic Zionism and the killing of gentiles are core parts of Judaism that are sanctioned in the Torah". In both cases, with a fundamentalist reading, you'd be right, but it's really up to Muslims and to Jews to interpret their own religions (and to interpret their way away from bad parts of their texts), not for the legal system to do. And it's kind of anti-Hindu to choose the most unsympathetic (to an American) reading of Hinduism to be the "official" one. It would be like saying that right-wing "Christian nationalism" is the "true" Christianity. The only people who would agree would be people outside Christianity who hate it, and the right wingers themselves. And in the case of "Hinduism" this is extra complicated, because there is no central authority, and barely even a core "religion" in the manner of monotheisms. "Hinduism" barely exists (some people say it's just a word invented by the Britishers); it's a loose confederation of Shaivism, Vaishnavism, etc; it's amorphous. It's hard to say what is and isn't a "core belief". Whenever you try to grasp it, it will slip out of your hand.
- FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
  To defend the "bad guy" for a second: In fairness to the HAF here, that "quote" is not a quote at all, but an uncharitable paraphrasing. If you're going to quote that "summary", it'd be best to also include a direct quote from the HAF along with it, so you appear fairer. Otherwise people will feel tricked and dismiss your argument.
  - iamshs 6y ago
    Only if you had read the article where it is addressed in detail. Your colored language notwithstanding ("uncharitable paraphrasing"), the statement is actually an accurate summary by a well respected researcher on Dalit issues, of what HAF is doing here. https://thewire.in/caste/cisco-case-caste-discrimination-silicon-valley-ambedkar-organisations https://thewire.in/caste/cisco-case-caste-discrimination-sil... Here is another good article which says the same and the dubious role HAF is playing in order to advance Hindu Upper Caste's systemic oppression. Please note, HAF is run by all Hindu Upper Caste people, and they are invested in this case so as to not set a precedent.
    - FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
      But I did read the article! On the surface, it seems that the HAF is inserting itself to argue a side point. The core issue is about whether caste is a protected category, and whether discrimination actually occurred at Cisco. HAF isn't really talking about that at all! Instead, they're just trying to make sure that court documents don't describe the caste system as "part of Hinduism". On the face of it, that doesn't seem so bad. Now, I do see that some people view this as a diversionary tactic by the HAF, and that it should not to be taken at face value: > According to Anil Wagde of the Ambedkar International Center, HAF’s intervention is an attempt to obfuscate the matter and confuse the court. It seems you also do not take HAF's objections at face value? But on the surface, their demands are -- a little distracting, but basically orthogonal. It feels like the solution to this is to say, "fine, we'll change the language used here (i.e., the description of Hinduism), and then get on with dealing with the core issue (i.e., the discrimination)".

iamshs 6y ago

I was visiting a professor in Germany as part of my research work. One day the professor brought me five resumes and asked me who out of them were upper caste Hindus. I said all, why? So while doing her PhD she had an experience where a Brahmin refused to do experimental lab work as it was considered manual work which was beneath him. So professor first asks fellow Indians about applicants caste and then tailors her hiring process. There's also this tam-bram pat where people feel janeu (can be worn only by upper caste hindu men), you don't even have to ask last name... https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-caste-bias-silicon-valley/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-...

markus_zhang 6y ago

Yes I heard that too. Like you can tell from the name, or the length of the name, something. I think if India gets rid of that part most Indians should be pretty happy...

notacoward 6y ago
One of my Indian coworkers said you could tell a lot about someone from their last name. Family origin, for one, down to a pretty fine granularity. Caste, likewise. My closest Indian friend once asked me if I could guess his caste. I told him I wouldn't even try. He laughed and told me that any Indian would instantly recognize his last name as placing him not only as a Brahmin but at a specific position within caste. In fact he hides it a bit, going by last initial when he can. I think you're right that a lot of Indians would be glad to get out from under their last names.
- markus_zhang 6y ago
  Yeah, just imagine how many talents are buried under that caste system...
- naravara 6y ago
  Around independence many Indian families kind of chose their last names (or had a choice imposed on them, in the case of lower caste members). Surnames were kind of a European import and traditionally people were identified by a personal name and one of several specifying markers like their home village, their familial vocation, religion, or jati. The Jati-based names are the ones people are talking about as being identifying. People who weren't enthusiastic about their caste identity tended not to pick identifying names and would have named themselves after their hometown or something instead. But even that has some associations. A jati is what people talk about when they talk about 'caste.' They're sort of like large, extended kinship groups analogous to Clans in Scotland. These groups all have associated vocations akin to how in the West we have stereotypes like linking Jews with banking or Koreans with dry cleaning. There's all sorts of legal, practical, and historical reasons why these associations take hold. And since they have associated vocations, they have associated Socio-economic-status markers as well. It's not all that different from ethnic discrimination except more concentrated and formalized since it has a much longer history. Untouchability is kind of a special category. Those groups were sort of pre-designated as being outside the pale of polite society. This was largely informal and variegated around India but become codified around the late Gupta empire (around 500-600AD). There was still a sort of group or ethnicity-based form of social mobility around this time. My own jati, for example, would have been considered among the lowest of the low in antiquity but by the time of the British Raj they had became more of a "middle-tier" caste. This was much more common in South India than in the North where the lines were never very formalized or rigid. There are all sorts of records of geneologies being created to link caste groups to mythological heroes to raise their profiles. The British Raj--by creating a sub-continent-wide government, a census, and a literal-to-the-letter interpretation of Hindu law books that exaggerated the traditional influence and role of priestly castes--ended up hardening and ossifying these pre-existing cultural mores into hard rules that we're living with to this day. You notice a big difference in older diasporic Hindu communities, such as in the West Indies where Indians were brought over as bonded labor. Most high-caste brahmins absolutely did not go because of a superstition around losing your caste if you cross the ocean. BUT they still observe many of the same rituals and religious rites. It turns out there were low-caste/low-status mendicant priests around. They just weren't the high-status ones that the Raj and Western anthropologists talked to when they started defining what "Hinduism" is.

moistbar 6y ago

I remember an Indian work friend of mine angrily telling me about another employee who wouldn't stop harassing him on account of his last name and the caste it placed him in. This was at a Fortune 10 company and nothing was done about it.