5 ms·

Remember also that the arab spring featured some coups, G was found to be shaping traffic during some of the re-elections to shift voting. Internet is not inher

Remember also that the arab spring featured some coups, G was found to be shaping traffic during some of the re-elections to shift voting. Internet is not inherently good or neutral.

pfarrell 6y ago
Totally agree those actions would be an abuse of power, but Google is not the internet. Google is among the most powerful entities on the internet. I worry that it wields the power of a nation state without the checks and obligations that constrain actual nations. But I can imagine a post-Google world where the internet persists. I think the internet is neutral. We users are not.
- krapp 6y ago
  > I worry that it wields the power of a nation state without the checks and obligations that constrain actual nations. The power of a nation state is based on its ability to maintain and control property, levy taxes and enforce compliance with its authority through a monopoly on violence. The premise that Google or any web platform has anything near the power of a nation state is ridiculous. Also, Google isn't an independent state, they're a corporation and as such are subject to the laws of the nation(s) in which they operate. They do what they do because governments allow them to, not because they have the power to defy governments at will.
  - LinuxBender 6y ago
    In my opinion, Google is more of a monitoring station for governments, [1] as is Facebook [2]. I agree that they do not hold the power to directly levy taxes or enforce compliance on their own accord. They can probably influence voting and other aspects of public perception. Netflix has a show called "The Great Hack" [3] that starts to go down this rabbit hole as well. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbKxUYl3WSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbKxUYl3WSE [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shpiVm1qpnw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shpiVm1qpnw [3] - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4736550/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4736550/
  - pfarrell 6y ago
    Very nice, krapp. Despite the downvotes, you've given me some things to think about this weekend. I will concede I was hyperbolic in equating Google with a nation. I've picked that up from sci fi and futurist stuff, but I'll have to think about how it would work in reality, for a corporation to gain that kind of authority.
damagednoob 6y ago
> Technology is not inherently good or neutral. FTFY
pjc50 6y ago
> Internet is not inherently good or neutral. I agree! But, given that it exists, acting against it is hardly neutral either. I would argue - and this is deliberately a separate post from the top of thread - that many of the problems come from techno-libertarianism mistaking neutrality for impartiality, and assuming that a technology that doesn't explicitly mention politics is apolitical. The internet allows true information to circumvent censors and permit the organisation of dissident groups against repression. It also permits the circulation of false or misleading information which has the effect of promoting violence and repression. Trying to distil this down to "internet good" or "internet bad" without having a clearly articulated politics is silly.
HappySweeney 6y ago
Do you have a source for Google shaping traffic during some re-elections to shift voting? I ask as I have never heard this, it's a big deal if true, and sounds like a conspiracy theory (nb: how it sounds does not make it false).
- thatcat 6y ago
  See @linuxbender's reply, The Great Hack was where I heard about it first.

Remember also that the arab spring featured some coups, G was found to be shaping traffic during some of the re-elections to shift voting. Internet is not inherently good or neutral.

pfarrell 6y ago

Totally agree those actions would be an abuse of power, but Google is not the internet. Google is among the most powerful entities on the internet. I worry that it wields the power of a nation state without the checks and obligations that constrain actual nations. But I can imagine a post-Google world where the internet persists. I think the internet is neutral. We users are not.

krapp 6y ago
> I worry that it wields the power of a nation state without the checks and obligations that constrain actual nations. The power of a nation state is based on its ability to maintain and control property, levy taxes and enforce compliance with its authority through a monopoly on violence. The premise that Google or any web platform has anything near the power of a nation state is ridiculous. Also, Google isn't an independent state, they're a corporation and as such are subject to the laws of the nation(s) in which they operate. They do what they do because governments allow them to, not because they have the power to defy governments at will.
- LinuxBender 6y ago
  In my opinion, Google is more of a monitoring station for governments, [1] as is Facebook [2]. I agree that they do not hold the power to directly levy taxes or enforce compliance on their own accord. They can probably influence voting and other aspects of public perception. Netflix has a show called "The Great Hack" [3] that starts to go down this rabbit hole as well. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbKxUYl3WSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbKxUYl3WSE [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shpiVm1qpnw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shpiVm1qpnw [3] - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4736550/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4736550/
- pfarrell 6y ago
  Very nice, krapp. Despite the downvotes, you've given me some things to think about this weekend. I will concede I was hyperbolic in equating Google with a nation. I've picked that up from sci fi and futurist stuff, but I'll have to think about how it would work in reality, for a corporation to gain that kind of authority.

damagednoob 6y ago

> Technology is not inherently good or neutral. FTFY

pjc50 6y ago

> Internet is not inherently good or neutral. I agree! But, given that it exists, acting against it is hardly neutral either. I would argue - and this is deliberately a separate post from the top of thread - that many of the problems come from techno-libertarianism mistaking neutrality for impartiality, and assuming that a technology that doesn't explicitly mention politics is apolitical. The internet allows true information to circumvent censors and permit the organisation of dissident groups against repression. It also permits the circulation of false or misleading information which has the effect of promoting violence and repression. Trying to distil this down to "internet good" or "internet bad" without having a clearly articulated politics is silly.

HappySweeney 6y ago

Do you have a source for Google shaping traffic during some re-elections to shift voting? I ask as I have never heard this, it's a big deal if true, and sounds like a conspiracy theory (nb: how it sounds does not make it false).

thatcat 6y ago
See @linuxbender's reply, The Great Hack was where I heard about it first.