45 ms·

> a game with much fewer goals, probably boring. Also, 0-0 ties and 1-0 wins don't really provide much information. These sports are typically played in the co

by pcl 6y ago

> a game with much fewer goals, probably boring. Also, 0-0 ties and 1-0 wins don't really provide much information. These sports are typically played in the contexts of seasons, where teams are trying to win a championship. Very low scores don't really meaningfully establish which teams are better than others. 0-0 and 1-1 ties are obviously not really disclosing much, but winning 1-0 is really too low-granularity to mean all that much also. Basketball is a bit ridiculous in the other direction, of course, but I assume that scores in the high single digits to low double digits should be the target, if we are to actually use them to figure out how to rank teams. Hurling (teams typically score 10-30 points in a game) and baseball (5-20) seem like they're in the right range. Soccer / football (0-10, but often on the bottom end of that) seems way too low.

LudwigNagasena 6y ago
Low single digits make scoring memorable and tension high.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- alistairSH 6y ago
  Disagree. I've tried to watch soccer, but the pace kills it for me. <3 goals (total, not per side) in 90 minutes?[1] No thanks. High single digit would be a noticeable improvement, IMO. US NCAA basketball is, IMO, one of the most exciting sports for viewing. Scores in the 70 point range[2] (per side, 30-35 baskets at 2 or 3 per) in about 2 hours (40 min clock ends up close to 120 min actual game length). 1 - FIFA World Cup matches haven't averaged more than 3 goals per match since 1958. https://www.statista.com/statistics/269031/goals-scored-per-game-at-the-fifa-world-cup-since-1930/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/269031/goals-scored-per-... 2 - https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/01/14/college-basketball-scoring-on-pace-to-be-lowest-in-60-years/1834109/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/01/14/colle...
  - AshleyGrant 6y ago
    What NCCAB games are you watching that last 60 minutes real-time? Every basketball game I watch, men's or women's lasts right at 2 hours, unless there's overtime.
    - alistairSH 6y ago
      Huh, so they are. Feels shorter to me when watching. Edited the post. Either way, I still prefer NCAA basketball to FIFA WC soccer.
  - trey-jones 6y ago
    I'm biased in favor of soccer, as that was the game that I grew up playing, but I think it's a different beast entirely from a hypothetical hockey game with low scoring because most shots just bounce off the goalie. The goalkeeper in soccer (as the article points out) has a much larger space to guard, and this provides opportunity showcasing ability. Both for the shooter and the keeper, as well as other defenders who can make impressive saves without the use of hands. Fans like showcases of ability. There are boring soccer games, just as there are boring hockey games and boring basketball games. But to me, a well-played soccer game is exciting almost all of the time. A goal can be scored from essentially anywhere on the pitch (much like basketball) and there are an enormous number of possible strategies to make this happen. This article seems to indicate that there is only one viable strategy just at the minute, and that's detrimental to the game. I don't really care much about hockey, and I'm not well educated on it, but I bought the argument.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - amalcon 6y ago
    Honestly, I think of soccer/football as being kind of like baseball. It looks really boring if you don't know what to watch for, but becomes interesting if you do. E.g. when one of your strikers is about to make a shot on goal, opposing strikers will likely move in anticipation that the goaltender might recover the ball and set up their own attack. Your defenders will need to move in response to this; if they mistake the play being set up, this can be a significant disadvantage. However, unless you recognize the play being set up, you don't see any of this and it just looks like a failed goal attempt. Disclaimer: I don't actually know much about soccer/football, and am paraphrasing an explanation from memory.
thaumasiotes 6y ago
> Also, 0-0 ties and 1-0 wins don't really provide much information. This doesn't seem to have caused any problems for soccer.
- lax0 6y ago
  Maybe shots on goal is important
- rectang 6y ago
  More like, the very real problems it causes haven't caused its popularity to tank. One major issue is that because goals are so scarce and penalty kicks are so high-percentage, there is an extreme incentive to dive.
rectang 6y ago
This is one reason I loved MISL, the Major Indoor Soccer League, back around 1980 — scores in the high single digits were common. https://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/features/major-indoor-soccer-hype-americas-one-time-biggest-league-remembered https://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/features/major-indoor-soccer-... > Played on artificial turf in ice hockey arenas with teams of six, 12ft-by-6ft nets, a hi-vis orange ball and rebounds off the hockey boards, this was the Americanisation of football taken to its logical conclusion. Games would produce 10 to 20 goals; one 1980 match saw a record 165 shots on target. The American obsession with stats was also catered for: players were precisely graded with points for goals and assists. It worked. Supporters weaned on the all-action scoring of basketball preferred it to the 'boring' one-nils of the NASL, and flocked to watch.
- rectang 6y ago
  Here's MISL star Steve Zungul scoring a hat trick in 37 seconds off the game clock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xpG4pYbT9A&t=2200s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xpG4pYbT9A&t=2200s
  - tomlor 6y ago
    Interestingly, the NHL record is even faster. 21 seconds. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2020/03/23/bill-mosienko-fastest-hat-trick-nhl-history-68-years-ago/2896972001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2020/03/23/bill-mo...
    - rectang 6y ago
      In standard football/soccer, it's 1 minute 29 seconds. https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2017/06/13/six-of-the-fastest-hat-tricks-in-football-history/ https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2017/06/13/six-of-the-fastest-hat...

by pcl 6y ago

LudwigNagasena 6y ago

Low single digits make scoring memorable and tension high.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
alistairSH 6y ago
Disagree. I've tried to watch soccer, but the pace kills it for me. <3 goals (total, not per side) in 90 minutes?[1] No thanks. High single digit would be a noticeable improvement, IMO. US NCAA basketball is, IMO, one of the most exciting sports for viewing. Scores in the 70 point range[2] (per side, 30-35 baskets at 2 or 3 per) in about 2 hours (40 min clock ends up close to 120 min actual game length). 1 - FIFA World Cup matches haven't averaged more than 3 goals per match since 1958. https://www.statista.com/statistics/269031/goals-scored-per-game-at-the-fifa-world-cup-since-1930/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/269031/goals-scored-per-... 2 - https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/01/14/college-basketball-scoring-on-pace-to-be-lowest-in-60-years/1834109/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/01/14/colle...
- AshleyGrant 6y ago
  What NCCAB games are you watching that last 60 minutes real-time? Every basketball game I watch, men's or women's lasts right at 2 hours, unless there's overtime.
  - alistairSH 6y ago
    Huh, so they are. Feels shorter to me when watching. Edited the post. Either way, I still prefer NCAA basketball to FIFA WC soccer.
- trey-jones 6y ago
  I'm biased in favor of soccer, as that was the game that I grew up playing, but I think it's a different beast entirely from a hypothetical hockey game with low scoring because most shots just bounce off the goalie. The goalkeeper in soccer (as the article points out) has a much larger space to guard, and this provides opportunity showcasing ability. Both for the shooter and the keeper, as well as other defenders who can make impressive saves without the use of hands. Fans like showcases of ability. There are boring soccer games, just as there are boring hockey games and boring basketball games. But to me, a well-played soccer game is exciting almost all of the time. A goal can be scored from essentially anywhere on the pitch (much like basketball) and there are an enormous number of possible strategies to make this happen. This article seems to indicate that there is only one viable strategy just at the minute, and that's detrimental to the game. I don't really care much about hockey, and I'm not well educated on it, but I bought the argument.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- amalcon 6y ago
  Honestly, I think of soccer/football as being kind of like baseball. It looks really boring if you don't know what to watch for, but becomes interesting if you do. E.g. when one of your strikers is about to make a shot on goal, opposing strikers will likely move in anticipation that the goaltender might recover the ball and set up their own attack. Your defenders will need to move in response to this; if they mistake the play being set up, this can be a significant disadvantage. However, unless you recognize the play being set up, you don't see any of this and it just looks like a failed goal attempt. Disclaimer: I don't actually know much about soccer/football, and am paraphrasing an explanation from memory.

thaumasiotes 6y ago

> Also, 0-0 ties and 1-0 wins don't really provide much information. This doesn't seem to have caused any problems for soccer.

lax0 6y ago
Maybe shots on goal is important
rectang 6y ago
More like, the very real problems it causes haven't caused its popularity to tank. One major issue is that because goals are so scarce and penalty kicks are so high-percentage, there is an extreme incentive to dive.

rectang 6y ago

This is one reason I loved MISL, the Major Indoor Soccer League, back around 1980 — scores in the high single digits were common. https://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/features/major-indoor-soccer-hype-americas-one-time-biggest-league-remembered https://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/features/major-indoor-soccer-... > Played on artificial turf in ice hockey arenas with teams of six, 12ft-by-6ft nets, a hi-vis orange ball and rebounds off the hockey boards, this was the Americanisation of football taken to its logical conclusion. Games would produce 10 to 20 goals; one 1980 match saw a record 165 shots on target. The American obsession with stats was also catered for: players were precisely graded with points for goals and assists. It worked. Supporters weaned on the all-action scoring of basketball preferred it to the 'boring' one-nils of the NASL, and flocked to watch.

rectang 6y ago
Here's MISL star Steve Zungul scoring a hat trick in 37 seconds off the game clock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xpG4pYbT9A&t=2200s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xpG4pYbT9A&t=2200s
- tomlor 6y ago
  Interestingly, the NHL record is even faster. 21 seconds. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2020/03/23/bill-mosienko-fastest-hat-trick-nhl-history-68-years-ago/2896972001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2020/03/23/bill-mo...
  - rectang 6y ago
    In standard football/soccer, it's 1 minute 29 seconds. https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2017/06/13/six-of-the-fastest-hat-tricks-in-football-history/ https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2017/06/13/six-of-the-fastest-hat...