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We should define something like a "Nakamoto scale". A Nakamoto Type I civilization would be one that converts all available power of a planet into waste heat

We should define something like a "Nakamoto scale". A Nakamoto Type I civilization would be one that converts all available power of a planet into waste heat and funny numbers, a Nakamoto Type II civilization does that with all the power output of a star and so on... basically the Kardashev scale [0] but with the restriction that useful output SHOULD NOT be produced [1]. Edit: lowered requirement level from MUST NOT to SHOULD NOT to allow for situations in which a limited amount of energy could be expended to either increase the hashrate further or to get closer to the limits of computation [2]. Edit 2: the more I think about it, the more it reminds me of the Universal Paperclips game. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2119 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2119 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limits_of_computation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limits_of_computation

wyldfire 6y ago
There is a unit named after Nakamoto [1] referring to decentralization, adding another might get confusing. [1] https://news.earn.com/quantifying-decentralization-e39db233c28e https://news.earn.com/quantifying-decentralization-e39db233c...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Isinlor 6y ago
This is basically what all life does. Thermodynamically, life can be described as an open system which makes use of gradients in its surroundings to create imperfect copies of itself. Crypto currencies still have a problem with creating copies of itself, but humans are happy to oblige.
- jf22 6y ago
  Comparing life itself to crypto is ridiculous.
  - Clewza313 6y ago
    Not entirely. Energy utilization is a common proxy for technological development. If a society is plowing tons of energy into crypto mining, then by definition somebody is getting utility out of it. (Which doesn't preclude it all being a Ponzi scheme, but that's another story.)
    - eurasiantiger 6y ago
      Life, the original RNA Ponzi scheme.
      - almost_usual 6y ago
        Makes you wonder if there are any other RNA Ponzi schemes in the universe.
  - pibechorro 6y ago
    Ok Dad.
  - monkeynotes 6y ago
    Isn't crypto ridiculous too? Rai stones look objectively more sensible and they are ridiculous. I'm not saying the technology is ridiculous, I'm just saying the overall implementation and outcomes would look like a madness to someone from the past or indeed the future.
    - quickthrowman 6y ago
      Rai stones are less weird than they look once you learn that some super expensive art is held in freeport warehouses and stays there even when bought and sold to different owners. Valuing a painting you own but never see at millions of dollars that gets bought and sold to others who never see it isn’t that much different than saying a certain immobile Rai stone is worth X of Y. Cryptocurrency is more ridiculous than both of the above, imo. Rai stones can be used as material, art can be looked at and enjoyed, cryptocurrency is random numbers controlling access to a ledger.
- zepto 6y ago
  Not really. Life transforms matter and energy into increasing structure and complexity. A classic pathological life-like process is the paperclip maximizer. The paperclip maximizer transforms matter and energy into a regular structure of low complexity. Crypto is one step worse than the paperclip maximizer. It converts matter and energy into pseudo-random numbers. The only structure discernible within the randomness is the mechanism that induces organic lifeforms to work on behalf of crypto.
  - bordercases 6y ago
    Hear hear, can I get an amen for Komolgorov? https://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Courses/InformationInSpeech/CDROM/Literature/LOTwinterschool2006/szabo.best.vwh.net/complexity.html https://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Courses/InformationInSpeech/C... https://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Courses/InformationInSpeech/CDROM/Literature/LOTwinterschool2006/szabo.best.vwh.net/kolmogorov.html https://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Courses/InformationInSpeech/C...
  - marci 6y ago
    Now let's clippyfy the universe: https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/index.html https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/index.html
sandworm101 6y ago
Arthur C. Clarke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God "overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out." Eventually we will have calculated all the necessary derivations and the universe will come to an end.
- behnamoh 6y ago
  > Eventually we will have calculated all the necessary derivations and the universe will come to an end. I'm sorry I didn't understand this. Could you explain?
  - xyzzyz 6y ago
    You need to read the short story referenced above to understand the context.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    The parent postulates that a "Nakamoto" type 2 civilization will convert all the energy of its star into heat doing bitcoin calculations. Such a star would disappear from visual light (Dyson sphere stuff). The Clarke story is about a religion that uses a computer to calculate all the names of god, bringing about the end of the universe. The story ends with stars disappearing. Both have big computers doing math that results in stars disappearing from the sky. The joke is that rather than calculating the names of god, maybe we will end the universe by finally getting to the end of bitcoin calculations.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
abriosi 6y ago
Ahah. Someone should write "BTC respects the second law of thermodynamics"
- noch 6y ago
  > Someone should write "BTC respects the second law of thermodynamics" Knut Svanholm: https://medium.com/hackernoon/bitcoin-and-thermodynamics-63f46b90627 https://medium.com/hackernoon/bitcoin-and-thermodynamics-63f... Andy Poelstra: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf
Shivetya 6y ago
I am curious how long after renewable energy displaces conventional methods combined with the predicted big reduction in pricing before heat becomes the next pollution bogey. the cheaper it gets will just increase its use which for much of the world is a great improvement in quality of life but there is always some costs involved
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Renewable energy is heat-neutral, at least the solar/wind types. The electricity is created from heat. Energy in photons that would otherwise strike the planet and become heat is turned into electrical power. In converting fast moving air to slower moving air a wind turbine extracts heat from the atmosphere and turns it into electricity. So now matter how many turbines and solar panels we build, they aren't pumping out any net heat. I believe this holds true for hydro, but not so for geothermal as it moves net heat into the biosphere.
blondie9x 6y ago
Can we please start regulating crypto currency mining? This is insane. I think it needs to be global mining regulation. Can the UN do anything else? If we start taking all the energy used to mine a given cryptocurrency it aggregates to more than most countries per cryptocurrency. Not ok. I know this is controversial but we have to at least debate this subject as we face an existential threat from climate change and yes cryptocurrencies are contributing to the climate crisis.
- krapp 6y ago
  The entire purpose of cryptocurrencies that they and their economies cannot be regulated by any government. A regulated cryptocurrency is just fiat with more steps and a contradiction in terms.
  - blondie9x 6y ago
    What about mining? We regulate gold / silver mining. Why not crypto mining? It consumes more energy than the gold or silver mining industries. https://coincentral.com/bitcoin-mining-trumps-gold-mining-energy-consumption-estimates/ https://coincentral.com/bitcoin-mining-trumps-gold-mining-en...
    - krapp 6y ago
      That's not going to stop organized crime or states that want to leverage influence over Bitcoin. Regulating the mining of physical materials is easier because governments can directly control the mines and regulate shipping and industries, etc. But even then, mining is full of cartels, slavery and blood money. Unfortunately, I think the only thing that's going to stop Bitcoin mining is the laws of physics.
- ArkanExplorer 6y ago
  You regulate the fiat onroads. If miners cannot sell their coins, they can't pay the electricity bills. Bitcoin will always be around, but with sufficient fiat blockages the value plummets. Governments should announce that people will have a year to sell all their coins (the price will tank immediately anyway), and then buying and selling of PoW coins will be banned.
karmakaze 6y ago
Love "Universal Paperclips"--'completed' it multiple times in one session. It's the core game without the fluff, uselessness at its best. You've been warned: [0] https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/ https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/

wyldfire 6y ago

There is a unit named after Nakamoto [1] referring to decentralization, adding another might get confusing. [1] https://news.earn.com/quantifying-decentralization-e39db233c28e https://news.earn.com/quantifying-decentralization-e39db233c...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Isinlor 6y ago

This is basically what all life does. Thermodynamically, life can be described as an open system which makes use of gradients in its surroundings to create imperfect copies of itself. Crypto currencies still have a problem with creating copies of itself, but humans are happy to oblige.

jf22 6y ago
Comparing life itself to crypto is ridiculous.
- Clewza313 6y ago
  Not entirely. Energy utilization is a common proxy for technological development. If a society is plowing tons of energy into crypto mining, then by definition somebody is getting utility out of it. (Which doesn't preclude it all being a Ponzi scheme, but that's another story.)
  - eurasiantiger 6y ago
    Life, the original RNA Ponzi scheme.
    - almost_usual 6y ago
      Makes you wonder if there are any other RNA Ponzi schemes in the universe.
- pibechorro 6y ago
  Ok Dad.
- monkeynotes 6y ago
  Isn't crypto ridiculous too? Rai stones look objectively more sensible and they are ridiculous. I'm not saying the technology is ridiculous, I'm just saying the overall implementation and outcomes would look like a madness to someone from the past or indeed the future.
  - quickthrowman 6y ago
    Rai stones are less weird than they look once you learn that some super expensive art is held in freeport warehouses and stays there even when bought and sold to different owners. Valuing a painting you own but never see at millions of dollars that gets bought and sold to others who never see it isn’t that much different than saying a certain immobile Rai stone is worth X of Y. Cryptocurrency is more ridiculous than both of the above, imo. Rai stones can be used as material, art can be looked at and enjoyed, cryptocurrency is random numbers controlling access to a ledger.
zepto 6y ago
Not really. Life transforms matter and energy into increasing structure and complexity. A classic pathological life-like process is the paperclip maximizer. The paperclip maximizer transforms matter and energy into a regular structure of low complexity. Crypto is one step worse than the paperclip maximizer. It converts matter and energy into pseudo-random numbers. The only structure discernible within the randomness is the mechanism that induces organic lifeforms to work on behalf of crypto.
- bordercases 6y ago
  Hear hear, can I get an amen for Komolgorov? https://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Courses/InformationInSpeech/CDROM/Literature/LOTwinterschool2006/szabo.best.vwh.net/complexity.html https://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Courses/InformationInSpeech/C... https://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Courses/InformationInSpeech/CDROM/Literature/LOTwinterschool2006/szabo.best.vwh.net/kolmogorov.html https://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Courses/InformationInSpeech/C...
- marci 6y ago
  Now let's clippyfy the universe: https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/index.html https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/index.html

sandworm101 6y ago

Arthur C. Clarke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God "overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out." Eventually we will have calculated all the necessary derivations and the universe will come to an end.

behnamoh 6y ago
> Eventually we will have calculated all the necessary derivations and the universe will come to an end. I'm sorry I didn't understand this. Could you explain?
- xyzzyz 6y ago
  You need to read the short story referenced above to understand the context.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  The parent postulates that a "Nakamoto" type 2 civilization will convert all the energy of its star into heat doing bitcoin calculations. Such a star would disappear from visual light (Dyson sphere stuff). The Clarke story is about a religion that uses a computer to calculate all the names of god, bringing about the end of the universe. The story ends with stars disappearing. Both have big computers doing math that results in stars disappearing from the sky. The joke is that rather than calculating the names of god, maybe we will end the universe by finally getting to the end of bitcoin calculations.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

abriosi 6y ago

Ahah. Someone should write "BTC respects the second law of thermodynamics"

noch 6y ago
> Someone should write "BTC respects the second law of thermodynamics" Knut Svanholm: https://medium.com/hackernoon/bitcoin-and-thermodynamics-63f46b90627 https://medium.com/hackernoon/bitcoin-and-thermodynamics-63f... Andy Poelstra: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf

Shivetya 6y ago

I am curious how long after renewable energy displaces conventional methods combined with the predicted big reduction in pricing before heat becomes the next pollution bogey. the cheaper it gets will just increase its use which for much of the world is a great improvement in quality of life but there is always some costs involved

sandworm101 6y ago
Renewable energy is heat-neutral, at least the solar/wind types. The electricity is created from heat. Energy in photons that would otherwise strike the planet and become heat is turned into electrical power. In converting fast moving air to slower moving air a wind turbine extracts heat from the atmosphere and turns it into electricity. So now matter how many turbines and solar panels we build, they aren't pumping out any net heat. I believe this holds true for hydro, but not so for geothermal as it moves net heat into the biosphere.

blondie9x 6y ago

Can we please start regulating crypto currency mining? This is insane. I think it needs to be global mining regulation. Can the UN do anything else? If we start taking all the energy used to mine a given cryptocurrency it aggregates to more than most countries per cryptocurrency. Not ok. I know this is controversial but we have to at least debate this subject as we face an existential threat from climate change and yes cryptocurrencies are contributing to the climate crisis.

krapp 6y ago
The entire purpose of cryptocurrencies that they and their economies cannot be regulated by any government. A regulated cryptocurrency is just fiat with more steps and a contradiction in terms.
- blondie9x 6y ago
  What about mining? We regulate gold / silver mining. Why not crypto mining? It consumes more energy than the gold or silver mining industries. https://coincentral.com/bitcoin-mining-trumps-gold-mining-energy-consumption-estimates/ https://coincentral.com/bitcoin-mining-trumps-gold-mining-en...
  - krapp 6y ago
    That's not going to stop organized crime or states that want to leverage influence over Bitcoin. Regulating the mining of physical materials is easier because governments can directly control the mines and regulate shipping and industries, etc. But even then, mining is full of cartels, slavery and blood money. Unfortunately, I think the only thing that's going to stop Bitcoin mining is the laws of physics.
ArkanExplorer 6y ago
You regulate the fiat onroads. If miners cannot sell their coins, they can't pay the electricity bills. Bitcoin will always be around, but with sufficient fiat blockages the value plummets. Governments should announce that people will have a year to sell all their coins (the price will tank immediately anyway), and then buying and selling of PoW coins will be banned.

karmakaze 6y ago

Love "Universal Paperclips"--'completed' it multiple times in one session. It's the core game without the fluff, uselessness at its best. You've been warned: [0] https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/ https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/