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They're selling a device too, it's not just an app. If you're a high level criminal it's not irrational to worry about zero days getting used on you. The attack

They're selling a device too, it's not just an app. If you're a high level criminal it's not irrational to worry about zero days getting used on you. The attack surface isn't limited to any one app [0]. I can see how this may be compelling, if done right it makes a lot of sense. Yes, a tiny no-name company is pretty likely to totally mess up. But the "error" in thinking here is being bad with probabilities rather than strictly not understanding something technical. I'd also wonder if there's an element of buying access. If all the top people in some criminal industry use it, it may be a way to signal membership. [0] not that there haven't been numerous whatsapp zerodays and expecting the Signal honeymoon to last makes about as much sense as "there's no Linux/Mac malware"

noir_lord 6y ago
If you where a really high level criminal you wouldn't use a phone at all, you'd pass all your instructions in person to lieutenants who'd pass them on down the chain. This was largely how the Mob operated for decades and why RICO was created. Communications security against national state level organisations in the current environment is a no-win situation for the defending side, you can make their life more difficult but for you to go truly dark means using nothing that shuffles electrons around.
- auganov 6y ago
  I feel like you may have a different definition of who a high level criminal is. I would consider anybody who derives significant revenue (say above $1M) from a criminal activity to count. I'd also question how many highly hierarchical criminal organizations exist today and how many have in the recent past. Media and governments love to overemphasize the organized element for simplicity. Likewise many "terrorist organizations" aren't organized either. In practice you mostly see very lose networks that operate a lot like the rest of the economy. There may be some emergent structure but it's usually not deliberate. > If you where a really high level criminal you wouldn't use a phone at all, you'd pass all your instructions in person to lieutenants who'd pass them on down the chain. > This was largely how the Mob operated for decades and why RICO was created. That would be a legal strategy not a communications security one. It may have been more feasible to proxy away legal responsibility before RICO and such.
bzzzt 6y ago
> it may be a way to signal membership. Yeah, because they want the world to know they are successful criminals. Just wondering: do they also wear a Beagle Boys mask?
- auganov 6y ago
  No, they want other criminals to know they're trustworthy. The risk of doing business is very high in criminal endeavors. People may have (or want to access) great deals to offer but no easy way to safely broker a transaction. This also creates the very conditions for these great deals to exist.

noir_lord 6y ago

If you where a really high level criminal you wouldn't use a phone at all, you'd pass all your instructions in person to lieutenants who'd pass them on down the chain. This was largely how the Mob operated for decades and why RICO was created. Communications security against national state level organisations in the current environment is a no-win situation for the defending side, you can make their life more difficult but for you to go truly dark means using nothing that shuffles electrons around.

auganov 6y ago
I feel like you may have a different definition of who a high level criminal is. I would consider anybody who derives significant revenue (say above $1M) from a criminal activity to count. I'd also question how many highly hierarchical criminal organizations exist today and how many have in the recent past. Media and governments love to overemphasize the organized element for simplicity. Likewise many "terrorist organizations" aren't organized either. In practice you mostly see very lose networks that operate a lot like the rest of the economy. There may be some emergent structure but it's usually not deliberate. > If you where a really high level criminal you wouldn't use a phone at all, you'd pass all your instructions in person to lieutenants who'd pass them on down the chain. > This was largely how the Mob operated for decades and why RICO was created. That would be a legal strategy not a communications security one. It may have been more feasible to proxy away legal responsibility before RICO and such.

bzzzt 6y ago

> it may be a way to signal membership. Yeah, because they want the world to know they are successful criminals. Just wondering: do they also wear a Beagle Boys mask?

auganov 6y ago
No, they want other criminals to know they're trustworthy. The risk of doing business is very high in criminal endeavors. People may have (or want to access) great deals to offer but no easy way to safely broker a transaction. This also creates the very conditions for these great deals to exist.