6 ms·

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger acto

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger actors in dairy production. While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

speeder 6y ago
Mind you, activist veganism is one of the biggest reasons family farms are being destroyed all over the world. Basically, low quality food is flooding the market, and getting purchased by the poorer population, that don't feel they have a choice in what they eat, because they eat whatever is necessary to fit in their budget. Meanwhile people that CAN afford to buy high quality food from family farms, don't, because of activism convincing them that doing so is evil, specially any farm that has anything to do with animals, this results in things that are actually really bad, like climates where wool is an excellent product have the farmers fail due to lack of demand, and instead people start buying plastic-based clothes, that contribute to plastic pollution. Or in Brazil: people love to blame the animal industry there for the fires, but it is not so simple, the massive areas being deforested ilegally are often used to produce soybeans, that are on an evergrowing demand due to two sources of demand compounding: 1. As family farms die, cattle instead of eating grass (something that in Brazil and some other countries was important, as some places only grow grass, and not other plants more useful for direct human comsumption), people switch to factory animal farms, that require rations, that are often made of soybeans. 2. Meanwhile the upper strata of society is switching from high quality meat (that would eat grass) to eating soybean-based products (like soybean milk, soybean-based meat, etc...) I think many activists have their heart in the right place, but they don't understand they are causing more problems than fixing them, the soybean industry is massively destructive, incentivizing it is extremely bad idea. final note: Remembered other major source of soybean usage... when in the 60s and 70s there was this massive media campaign against usage of animal fats for frying, people switched to soybean oil to fry instead, Brazil also produces massive amounts of that, and I know many people that personally use soybean oil because they honestly believe it is healthier to them and better for the environment than using butter, pork fat, etc...
- coppolaemilio 6y ago
  Did you know that the soybeans planted there are 100% to feed cattle?
  - samatman 6y ago
    Untrue, a significant amount, perhaps even most of it, is exported to China to feed pigs. 73% of Brazilian soybean exports go to China, I wasn't able to find figures on domestic vs export consumption with a cursory search. Doesn't really undermine your point, except that if you want to save Brazilian rainforest by reducing meat consumption, you'll need to take it up with the Chinese.
- valgor 6y ago
  You will be happy to learn that the majority of soybeans fed to live stock, so if you are worried about the environment, soy is better than meat.
- shlant 6y ago
  > activist veganism is one of the biggest reasons family farms are being destroyed all over the world You're going to have to provide some substantial evidence to back that up. In reality, family farms are actually being destroyed by factory farms[1][2]. This is the case with most industries - smaller operations cannot compete or get bought out by larger players. > massive areas being deforested ilegally are often used to produce soybeans If you are concerned about deforestation due to soy production, pointing to vegans as the main culprit is misguided at best and misleading at worst. If you care about preventing deforestation from soy, then you should know that around 70-75% of the world’s soya ends up as animal feed for cows, pigs, chickens and farmed fish[3] "In 2017, Brazil produced 16.3 million tons of soymeal for its domestic market, and more than 90 percent of that became animal feed, with 50 percent used as chicken feed, 25 percent as pig feed, and 12 percent for beef and dairy cattle feed."[4] 1. https://sentientmedia.org/family-farms-and-the-rise-of-industrial-agriculture/ https://sentientmedia.org/family-farms-and-the-rise-of-indus... 2. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/09/american-food-giants-swallow-the-family-farms-iowa https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/09/american... 3. https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/publications/research/2016-01-28-agricultural-commodities-brack-glover-wellesley.pdf https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/publication... 4. https://news.mongabay.com/2019/01/brazilian-hunger-for-meat-fattened-on-soy-is-deforesting-the-cerrado-report/ https://news.mongabay.com/2019/01/brazilian-hunger-for-meat-...
efiecho 6y ago
> While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat. Dairy and meat is part of a healthy diet. While not impossible to do without, health problems often develops with time. That's why most people (84%) who adopts a vegan diet at some point in their lives, returns to eating meat and dairy again. The first years on a plant diet are usually great, almost everyone feels better than ever. Then after 5-10 years many will experience a steep decline in health, both physical and mental that is resolved with returning to animal products. Of course eating too much animal products and not enough plants will also make you sick, that goes without saying. So yes, agree very much that we should care how it is produced.
- rtrdea 6y ago
  HahahahahhHahahaha
- shever 6y ago
  > Dairy and meat is part of a healthy diet. Not actually true. For centuries, the traditional Chinese diet did not include dairy and minimised meat consumption too. The oft-trotted-out trope of calcium in dairy is misleading (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk/ http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk...) and even relatively small amounts of meat and dairy increase the possibility of prostate cancer (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033) Speaking as a vegan of over 10 years, who is mentally sharper and healthier than I was a decade ago, I also don't agree with the "steep decline in health, both physical and mental". I do agree that certain nutrients, such as B12, need to be supplemented, but the Institute of Medicine recommends that everyone over the age of 50 supplement B12 whether vegan or not.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
    >> The oft-trotted-out trope of calcium in dairy is misleading (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk...) and even relatively small amounts of meat and dairy increase the possibility of prostate cancer (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033) From your link: While calcium and dairy can lower the risk of osteoporosis and colon cancer, high intake can increase the risk of prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer. It increases the probability of developing some diseases and lowers that of developing others.
NoOneNew 6y ago
The dairy industry isn't the best to attack on animal cruelty. While there are bad actors within it, it's a small amount compared to it as a whole. Low stress cows produce noticeably better quality milk. This isn't a secret in the industry. Wheat, soybean, avocados, palm oil and more are just as bad for the environment and animal life due to commercialization. Monoculture industrial farming is inherently unsustainable. High density growing of a single type of organism that requires outside resources to be brought it. Artificial fertilizer production isn't ecological either. The pest control required, and I'm not talking about bugs, I'm talking about rodents, birds, boar and deer, is pretty harmful for not just the animals, but for the regional ecosystem. "Let's just make food more expensive for people! I decide what people should eat and when even though the purchasing power of the average individual is shrinking as is!" As an omnivore, I have to tell you, "slow down there Stalin". Then again, you're not wrong. You need less farmland if you starve enough people to death. Guess you're a fan of population control? Historically speaking, on average, anyone that advocates for the limiting of general food distribution to everyday people don't become well known as humanitarians or "good people". You choose to be vegan, good for you. But don't pretend industrial farming of soy, peas and avocados don't have blood on their hands. The only vegans who can lay claim to the moral high ground are the ones that permaculture grow their own food. They get my respect, big time, since they're not virtue dieters.
andrew_ 6y ago
As a human who is concerned with the treatment of bull (male) calfs born on dairy farms and their treatment for the production of veal, I have absolutely no clue why being a vegan has any pertinence. Why is it such common practice to insufferably proclaim one's ethos as a vegan? In all seriousness, the conditions under which bull calfs for veal production is abhorrent, and I have great difficulty in balance sympathy for the plight of dairy with the practices of the industry. While the article mentions CAFOs, which are the largest contributors to veal production, I'd been hard-pressed to find a family run dairy farm in my home, midwestern state, which didn't at the least sell their bull calfs to outfits that do produce veal. Next time you see that on the menu, take a moment to think about where it's coming from and how it's made.
- cies 6y ago
  > the conditions under which bull calfs for veal production is abhorrent To you! To me (also vegan) any animal in a cage is abhorrent. I want to be free and wild and I also want all others to be free and wild. Maybe some humans deserve to be caged for their behavior. Animals can never be guilty... > Next time you see that on the menu, take a moment to think about where it's coming from and how it's made. Exactly. Was someone (NOT something) caged? Was a baby taken away from a mother, right after birth, in order to steal (=take what is not given) the milk that mum produces for baby? And after this consideration: go for one of the plant options on the menu!
  - andrew_ 6y ago
    This is yet more the kind of nonsensical, insufferable drivel that turns people away from rationally thinking about their food. Someone's preference for how and what they eat contributes nothing to conversation, and exists only to project a belief of superiority and collect pats on the back from like-minded thinkers.
    - slfnflctd 6y ago
      If a sentient AI with superhuman intelligence were observing us, they would be utterly puzzled at the amount of waste and destruction we perpetuate through the meat & dairy industries for no reason other than ephemeral perceived pleasure through our taste buds. If "someone's preference" - a completely subjective thing - is objectively less efficient and more harmful than doing something else, we can and do intervene to discourage such practices. No one should have to apologize for promoting something clearly better. If you love meat and are willing to burn the planet down so you can keep eating it, fine. But don't pretend it's a choice without consequences or that it's necessary.
esaym 6y ago
>As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. For a somewhat malicious counter point... if the entire world stopped using dairy and beef, the cow as we know it would quickly go extinct. They have no natural habitat, they can't take care of themselves, and they make really lousy pets. It is a somewhat similar story with elephants. They make lousy pets as well and selling ivory is illegal. So the best they get is being shoved into smaller and smaller chunks of dedicated public land.
- causasui 6y ago
  > if the entire world stopped using dairy and beef, the cow as we know it would quickly go extinct So what? Why should the cow exist for the sake of existing?
- missingrib 6y ago
  I don't understand this focus on "species" in the abstract over the individual members of the species.
- ozborn 6y ago
  "the entire world stopped using dairy and beef, the cow as we know it would quickly go extinct" Lots of animals are not used for meat and dairy and are not extinct. Sure, numbers of cows would be massively reduced but that also frees up pasture. Pasture could be converted to habitat for wildlife and support a more diverse set of species. I can only speak for myself, but I don't care if the number of cattle are reduced to a tiny fraction of the population they once were, if it means more biodiversity.
- spaetzleesser 6y ago
  "For a somewhat malicious counter point... if the entire world stopped using dairy and beef, the cow as we know it would quickly go extinct. They have no natural habitat, they can't take care of themselves, and they make really lousy pets. " Reframing factory farming as a conservation measure is a very cyncial view. That's top notch spin doctoring and worth a long career in lobbying.
- ska 6y ago

speeder 6y ago

Mind you, activist veganism is one of the biggest reasons family farms are being destroyed all over the world. Basically, low quality food is flooding the market, and getting purchased by the poorer population, that don't feel they have a choice in what they eat, because they eat whatever is necessary to fit in their budget. Meanwhile people that CAN afford to buy high quality food from family farms, don't, because of activism convincing them that doing so is evil, specially any farm that has anything to do with animals, this results in things that are actually really bad, like climates where wool is an excellent product have the farmers fail due to lack of demand, and instead people start buying plastic-based clothes, that contribute to plastic pollution. Or in Brazil: people love to blame the animal industry there for the fires, but it is not so simple, the massive areas being deforested ilegally are often used to produce soybeans, that are on an evergrowing demand due to two sources of demand compounding: 1. As family farms die, cattle instead of eating grass (something that in Brazil and some other countries was important, as some places only grow grass, and not other plants more useful for direct human comsumption), people switch to factory animal farms, that require rations, that are often made of soybeans. 2. Meanwhile the upper strata of society is switching from high quality meat (that would eat grass) to eating soybean-based products (like soybean milk, soybean-based meat, etc...) I think many activists have their heart in the right place, but they don't understand they are causing more problems than fixing them, the soybean industry is massively destructive, incentivizing it is extremely bad idea. final note: Remembered other major source of soybean usage... when in the 60s and 70s there was this massive media campaign against usage of animal fats for frying, people switched to soybean oil to fry instead, Brazil also produces massive amounts of that, and I know many people that personally use soybean oil because they honestly believe it is healthier to them and better for the environment than using butter, pork fat, etc...

coppolaemilio 6y ago
Did you know that the soybeans planted there are 100% to feed cattle?
- samatman 6y ago
  Untrue, a significant amount, perhaps even most of it, is exported to China to feed pigs. 73% of Brazilian soybean exports go to China, I wasn't able to find figures on domestic vs export consumption with a cursory search. Doesn't really undermine your point, except that if you want to save Brazilian rainforest by reducing meat consumption, you'll need to take it up with the Chinese.
valgor 6y ago
You will be happy to learn that the majority of soybeans fed to live stock, so if you are worried about the environment, soy is better than meat.
shlant 6y ago
> activist veganism is one of the biggest reasons family farms are being destroyed all over the world You're going to have to provide some substantial evidence to back that up. In reality, family farms are actually being destroyed by factory farms[1][2]. This is the case with most industries - smaller operations cannot compete or get bought out by larger players. > massive areas being deforested ilegally are often used to produce soybeans If you are concerned about deforestation due to soy production, pointing to vegans as the main culprit is misguided at best and misleading at worst. If you care about preventing deforestation from soy, then you should know that around 70-75% of the world’s soya ends up as animal feed for cows, pigs, chickens and farmed fish[3] "In 2017, Brazil produced 16.3 million tons of soymeal for its domestic market, and more than 90 percent of that became animal feed, with 50 percent used as chicken feed, 25 percent as pig feed, and 12 percent for beef and dairy cattle feed."[4] 1. https://sentientmedia.org/family-farms-and-the-rise-of-industrial-agriculture/ https://sentientmedia.org/family-farms-and-the-rise-of-indus... 2. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/09/american-food-giants-swallow-the-family-farms-iowa https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/09/american... 3. https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/publications/research/2016-01-28-agricultural-commodities-brack-glover-wellesley.pdf https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/publication... 4. https://news.mongabay.com/2019/01/brazilian-hunger-for-meat-fattened-on-soy-is-deforesting-the-cerrado-report/ https://news.mongabay.com/2019/01/brazilian-hunger-for-meat-...

efiecho 6y ago

> While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat. Dairy and meat is part of a healthy diet. While not impossible to do without, health problems often develops with time. That's why most people (84%) who adopts a vegan diet at some point in their lives, returns to eating meat and dairy again. The first years on a plant diet are usually great, almost everyone feels better than ever. Then after 5-10 years many will experience a steep decline in health, both physical and mental that is resolved with returning to animal products. Of course eating too much animal products and not enough plants will also make you sick, that goes without saying. So yes, agree very much that we should care how it is produced.

rtrdea 6y ago
HahahahahhHahahaha
shever 6y ago
> Dairy and meat is part of a healthy diet. Not actually true. For centuries, the traditional Chinese diet did not include dairy and minimised meat consumption too. The oft-trotted-out trope of calcium in dairy is misleading (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk/ http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk...) and even relatively small amounts of meat and dairy increase the possibility of prostate cancer (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033) Speaking as a vegan of over 10 years, who is mentally sharper and healthier than I was a decade ago, I also don't agree with the "steep decline in health, both physical and mental". I do agree that certain nutrients, such as B12, need to be supplemented, but the Institute of Medicine recommends that everyone over the age of 50 supplement B12 whether vegan or not.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  >> The oft-trotted-out trope of calcium in dairy is misleading (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk...) and even relatively small amounts of meat and dairy increase the possibility of prostate cancer (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033) From your link: While calcium and dairy can lower the risk of osteoporosis and colon cancer, high intake can increase the risk of prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer. It increases the probability of developing some diseases and lowers that of developing others.

NoOneNew 6y ago

The dairy industry isn't the best to attack on animal cruelty. While there are bad actors within it, it's a small amount compared to it as a whole. Low stress cows produce noticeably better quality milk. This isn't a secret in the industry. Wheat, soybean, avocados, palm oil and more are just as bad for the environment and animal life due to commercialization. Monoculture industrial farming is inherently unsustainable. High density growing of a single type of organism that requires outside resources to be brought it. Artificial fertilizer production isn't ecological either. The pest control required, and I'm not talking about bugs, I'm talking about rodents, birds, boar and deer, is pretty harmful for not just the animals, but for the regional ecosystem. "Let's just make food more expensive for people! I decide what people should eat and when even though the purchasing power of the average individual is shrinking as is!" As an omnivore, I have to tell you, "slow down there Stalin". Then again, you're not wrong. You need less farmland if you starve enough people to death. Guess you're a fan of population control? Historically speaking, on average, anyone that advocates for the limiting of general food distribution to everyday people don't become well known as humanitarians or "good people". You choose to be vegan, good for you. But don't pretend industrial farming of soy, peas and avocados don't have blood on their hands. The only vegans who can lay claim to the moral high ground are the ones that permaculture grow their own food. They get my respect, big time, since they're not virtue dieters.

andrew_ 6y ago

As a human who is concerned with the treatment of bull (male) calfs born on dairy farms and their treatment for the production of veal, I have absolutely no clue why being a vegan has any pertinence. Why is it such common practice to insufferably proclaim one's ethos as a vegan? In all seriousness, the conditions under which bull calfs for veal production is abhorrent, and I have great difficulty in balance sympathy for the plight of dairy with the practices of the industry. While the article mentions CAFOs, which are the largest contributors to veal production, I'd been hard-pressed to find a family run dairy farm in my home, midwestern state, which didn't at the least sell their bull calfs to outfits that do produce veal. Next time you see that on the menu, take a moment to think about where it's coming from and how it's made.

cies 6y ago
> the conditions under which bull calfs for veal production is abhorrent To you! To me (also vegan) any animal in a cage is abhorrent. I want to be free and wild and I also want all others to be free and wild. Maybe some humans deserve to be caged for their behavior. Animals can never be guilty... > Next time you see that on the menu, take a moment to think about where it's coming from and how it's made. Exactly. Was someone (NOT something) caged? Was a baby taken away from a mother, right after birth, in order to steal (=take what is not given) the milk that mum produces for baby? And after this consideration: go for one of the plant options on the menu!
- andrew_ 6y ago
  This is yet more the kind of nonsensical, insufferable drivel that turns people away from rationally thinking about their food. Someone's preference for how and what they eat contributes nothing to conversation, and exists only to project a belief of superiority and collect pats on the back from like-minded thinkers.
  - slfnflctd 6y ago
    If a sentient AI with superhuman intelligence were observing us, they would be utterly puzzled at the amount of waste and destruction we perpetuate through the meat & dairy industries for no reason other than ephemeral perceived pleasure through our taste buds. If "someone's preference" - a completely subjective thing - is objectively less efficient and more harmful than doing something else, we can and do intervene to discourage such practices. No one should have to apologize for promoting something clearly better. If you love meat and are willing to burn the planet down so you can keep eating it, fine. But don't pretend it's a choice without consequences or that it's necessary.

esaym 6y ago

>As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. For a somewhat malicious counter point... if the entire world stopped using dairy and beef, the cow as we know it would quickly go extinct. They have no natural habitat, they can't take care of themselves, and they make really lousy pets. It is a somewhat similar story with elephants. They make lousy pets as well and selling ivory is illegal. So the best they get is being shoved into smaller and smaller chunks of dedicated public land.

causasui 6y ago
> if the entire world stopped using dairy and beef, the cow as we know it would quickly go extinct So what? Why should the cow exist for the sake of existing?
missingrib 6y ago
I don't understand this focus on "species" in the abstract over the individual members of the species.
ozborn 6y ago
"the entire world stopped using dairy and beef, the cow as we know it would quickly go extinct" Lots of animals are not used for meat and dairy and are not extinct. Sure, numbers of cows would be massively reduced but that also frees up pasture. Pasture could be converted to habitat for wildlife and support a more diverse set of species. I can only speak for myself, but I don't care if the number of cattle are reduced to a tiny fraction of the population they once were, if it means more biodiversity.
spaetzleesser 6y ago
"For a somewhat malicious counter point... if the entire world stopped using dairy and beef, the cow as we know it would quickly go extinct. They have no natural habitat, they can't take care of themselves, and they make really lousy pets. " Reframing factory farming as a conservation measure is a very cyncial view. That's top notch spin doctoring and worth a long career in lobbying.
ska 6y ago