4 ms·

The article seems to be accusing Americans listening to city pop through YouTube of light Orientalism. If people enjoy it, what's the problem?

ghgdynb1 6y ago
Legitimately thank you your comment saved me a click.
tomdell 6y ago
Pitchfork editorials almost always skew more political than musical.
- krapp 6y ago
  Have you read the article? It's far from being a "pitchfork editorial." edit: i'm dumb. someone please flag this comment so dang will see it and prune this subthread.
  - tomdell 6y ago
    Isn’t an editorial just a long opinion article? What would you describe it as?
    - krapp 6y ago
      The "pitchfork" is the part I'm objecting to. It's a well written article, and it doesn't even make any pejorative statements about the people who like city pop or the "techno-Orientalist" aesthetic it discusses, but your comment seems to imply an emotionally charged rant meant to foment an angry mob, which it obviously isn't.
      - waldohatesyou 6y ago
        The name of the site is pitchfork
      - kingbirdy 6y ago
        Pitchfork is the name of the website that's hosting the article
        krapp 6y ago
        Oh wow, I completely missed the title of the site. I deserve the downvotes. Never mind, then.
      - Rebelgecko 6y ago
        The publication is literally "Pitchfork"
  - joeleee 6y ago
    The name of the site is Pitchfork Media and it's just about music, so "pitchfork editorials" don't have anything to do with internet mobs. Unless they do.
krapp 6y ago
Nothing. I don't think it is Orientalism, to me that implies dehumanizing or infantilizing Japanese people or fetishizing their culture, but city pop and other vaporwave genres just appreciate the aesthetic. It has a particularly nostalgic quality for a lot of Westerners who grew up with Japanese media. And Japanese culture does the same thing with Western pop culture, Western music and English.
mc32 6y ago
It’s complete BS. People can like whatever the F legal thing they want to like no explanation necessary. This is absurd. So overseas people can’t listen to American music or cinema unless they “understand us” and the culture? Likewise I can’t like French wine unless I’m a connoisseur? Or I can’t listen to Swedish pop or death metal unless I immerse into Swedish culture etc? Or I can’t eat tacos unless I’m Mexican or no one can eat hamburgers or play basketball but Americans, etc? Eff off. People can fetishize whatever they want when they want. Some guys like Kanye and Tiger fetishized blondes. Guys like Nick Cage and George Soros fetishize Asians, etc. Get over it. This is just childish and absurd.
teterphiel 6y ago
The problem is that journalism doesn't pay much anymore and confers less status and prospect than a coal miner. To make up the difference, they pick up arms against imgainary foes (secret, undetectable yet very dangerous orientalism) to give their lives a meaning it wouldn't otherwise have. Young woke liberals roughly go through the same as the members of UFO cults in the 70s: Unable to accept being discarded by society, they place themselves at the center of a galactic conspiracy.
claudiawerner 6y ago
There are some points I want to make about the article; firstly, the article doesn't paint listeners (including myself in that group as an owner of ~100 Japanese 70s/80s records) as orientalists. Rather, it claims that the surge in the popularity of city pop has emerged out of stereotypes and biases about Japan, the past, and past Japan. Those stereotypes, and being built into a fetish, is the orientalist element. The Pitchfork writer doesn't say that's a problem. It's more of an article along the lines that the unexamined life is not worth living. Neither the writer (nor the academic they cite) are going to be starting a campaign to get Google to take down city pop album rips on YouTube. They're not on a campaign to get it banned. They're not going to be breaking into your house to confiscate your headphones. They're not calling me racist. If someone had written an article about the rise in popularity of Jazz in the 50s being founded in the idea of the black entertainer to be appreciated for his amazing skill in contrast to other blacks (think along the lines of the movie Green Book for an exploration of the ideas), that might be a valid observation, and something to think about. What attracts you to jazz? Do you know what attracts you to jazz, and how do you know that? It doesn't mean you're a racist, in the same way liking porn doesn't mean you're a misogynist. So there is no 'problem', but maybe it's something to think about and reflect on. I think the article prompted me to do that, but maybe not in the way it intended. Desires and preferences (as much as people can pass things off as 'just what I like') may be worthy of moral consideration, according to some philosophers. I'll keep listening to my records, but I'll also examine what's behind them in my mind. The article does a good job of pointing to the phenomenon of 'Cool Japan' without actually mentioning it. In particular, the last sentence. On the other hand, it's worth considering what effects articles like these have on listeners. If they come away with the impression that it's wrong to listen to city pop or any music that isn't from "their culture", there's been a failure in communication that would seem to encourage people to become cloistered in the superiority of their own cultures, which reduces the recognition of what we have in common as humans. It's a complicated issue. I don't think the article does a great job of addressing it.

ghgdynb1 6y ago

Legitimately thank you your comment saved me a click.

tomdell 6y ago

Pitchfork editorials almost always skew more political than musical.

krapp 6y ago
Have you read the article? It's far from being a "pitchfork editorial." edit: i'm dumb. someone please flag this comment so dang will see it and prune this subthread.
- tomdell 6y ago
  Isn’t an editorial just a long opinion article? What would you describe it as?
  - krapp 6y ago
    The "pitchfork" is the part I'm objecting to. It's a well written article, and it doesn't even make any pejorative statements about the people who like city pop or the "techno-Orientalist" aesthetic it discusses, but your comment seems to imply an emotionally charged rant meant to foment an angry mob, which it obviously isn't.
    - waldohatesyou 6y ago
      The name of the site is pitchfork
    - kingbirdy 6y ago
      Pitchfork is the name of the website that's hosting the article
      - krapp 6y ago
        Oh wow, I completely missed the title of the site. I deserve the downvotes. Never mind, then.
    - Rebelgecko 6y ago
      The publication is literally "Pitchfork"
- joeleee 6y ago
  The name of the site is Pitchfork Media and it's just about music, so "pitchfork editorials" don't have anything to do with internet mobs. Unless they do.

krapp 6y ago

Nothing. I don't think it is Orientalism, to me that implies dehumanizing or infantilizing Japanese people or fetishizing their culture, but city pop and other vaporwave genres just appreciate the aesthetic. It has a particularly nostalgic quality for a lot of Westerners who grew up with Japanese media. And Japanese culture does the same thing with Western pop culture, Western music and English.

mc32 6y ago

It’s complete BS. People can like whatever the F legal thing they want to like no explanation necessary. This is absurd. So overseas people can’t listen to American music or cinema unless they “understand us” and the culture? Likewise I can’t like French wine unless I’m a connoisseur? Or I can’t listen to Swedish pop or death metal unless I immerse into Swedish culture etc? Or I can’t eat tacos unless I’m Mexican or no one can eat hamburgers or play basketball but Americans, etc? Eff off. People can fetishize whatever they want when they want. Some guys like Kanye and Tiger fetishized blondes. Guys like Nick Cage and George Soros fetishize Asians, etc. Get over it. This is just childish and absurd.

teterphiel 6y ago

The problem is that journalism doesn't pay much anymore and confers less status and prospect than a coal miner. To make up the difference, they pick up arms against imgainary foes (secret, undetectable yet very dangerous orientalism) to give their lives a meaning it wouldn't otherwise have. Young woke liberals roughly go through the same as the members of UFO cults in the 70s: Unable to accept being discarded by society, they place themselves at the center of a galactic conspiracy.

claudiawerner 6y ago

There are some points I want to make about the article; firstly, the article doesn't paint listeners (including myself in that group as an owner of ~100 Japanese 70s/80s records) as orientalists. Rather, it claims that the surge in the popularity of city pop has emerged out of stereotypes and biases about Japan, the past, and past Japan. Those stereotypes, and being built into a fetish, is the orientalist element. The Pitchfork writer doesn't say that's a problem. It's more of an article along the lines that the unexamined life is not worth living. Neither the writer (nor the academic they cite) are going to be starting a campaign to get Google to take down city pop album rips on YouTube. They're not on a campaign to get it banned. They're not going to be breaking into your house to confiscate your headphones. They're not calling me racist. If someone had written an article about the rise in popularity of Jazz in the 50s being founded in the idea of the black entertainer to be appreciated for his amazing skill in contrast to other blacks (think along the lines of the movie Green Book for an exploration of the ideas), that might be a valid observation, and something to think about. What attracts you to jazz? Do you know what attracts you to jazz, and how do you know that? It doesn't mean you're a racist, in the same way liking porn doesn't mean you're a misogynist. So there is no 'problem', but maybe it's something to think about and reflect on. I think the article prompted me to do that, but maybe not in the way it intended. Desires and preferences (as much as people can pass things off as 'just what I like') may be worthy of moral consideration, according to some philosophers. I'll keep listening to my records, but I'll also examine what's behind them in my mind. The article does a good job of pointing to the phenomenon of 'Cool Japan' without actually mentioning it. In particular, the last sentence. On the other hand, it's worth considering what effects articles like these have on listeners. If they come away with the impression that it's wrong to listen to city pop or any music that isn't from "their culture", there's been a failure in communication that would seem to encourage people to become cloistered in the superiority of their own cultures, which reduces the recognition of what we have in common as humans. It's a complicated issue. I don't think the article does a great job of addressing it.