6 ms·

The difference between Mac and PC keyboards is a real usability problem. If you're used to PC's or Linux, moving to a Mac and dealing with their shortcuts is p

by beloch 6y ago

The difference between Mac and PC keyboards is a real usability problem. If you're used to PC's or Linux, moving to a Mac and dealing with their shortcuts is painful, and vice-versa. The worst is using a mixture of both Mac's and PC's on a daily basis. Moving back and forth between platforms daily means you either have to get used to hitting the wrong shortcuts or use a hack to swap keys around on one platform so you can have standard shortcut key positions across platforms. Different people will have a preference for one layout vs the other but, in reality, the layout that feels good is what you're used to. The PC and Linux worlds are not going to adopt Mac keyboard layouts. As the one oddball computer manufacturer that uses their own layout, perhaps it's time for Apple to offer PC keyboard layouts as an option on their machines out of consideration for people who have to use multiple platforms.

datavirtue 6y ago
Welcome to my world
breakfastduck 6y ago
My main computer is a mac but I have to remote into windows machines often and switching between is horrible. I've remapped my gaming pc to mirror the mac layout because the instinct is so much stronger than whats written on the keys.
- rbreaves 6y ago
  I have done pretty extensive testing, but I can confirm that my Kinto app does work with your type of configuration. The RDP applications that work is mentioned in the readme.
  - breakfastduck 6y ago
    Amazing. I can install applications (thankfully) on the RDP instance I connect to, so I shall definitely give it a whirl.
floydnoel 6y ago
as a person who loves Macs and their keyboard shortcuts, I'm really excited to find this project! and as somebody like yourself, who has to work on both platforms (Apple/PC) every day, I'm very happy it exists. would the answer to your problem not be a reciprocal library for Mac that ports over (or makes possible) your preferred shortcuts? I believe this already exists, which should be good news for you.
- kova12 6y ago
  I empathize with you, but from the other side. I got a Mac at work while being on Linux for a long time; and the differences in keyboard combos are driving me mad, so much that I don't even use said Mac anymore. The differences in keyboard layout are so unnecessary from technical point. The only reason for them to exist is to lock people into the corresponding ecosystem. Whoever got that going deserves get a swift kick in the nuts for every time I missed a key due to that nonsense
  - favorited 6y ago
    > The only reason for them to exist is to lock people into the corresponding ecosystem Or maybe Mac users have had that keyboard layout for decades and are happy with it? Anyone who really wants a Windows-style layout could just change their own anyway, so people must not be that bothered.
  - kergonath 6y ago
    > The differences in keyboard layout are so unnecessary from technical point. The only reason for them to exist is to lock people into the corresponding ecosystem. Surely you’re aware that these keyboard shortcuts have been in use on Macs for about a decade before Linux existed, right?
    - jamienicol 6y ago
      That's the same argument Emacs developers use to justify alt (sorry, "meta") + w as copy. But it's a terrible argument. (In the Mac case at least using cmd+c is superior, and even works in Emacs!)
jimbob45 6y ago
Apple’s MO all along has been lock-in to their ecosystem any way they can make it happen, whether it be through their usability, their OS, their App Store, or iTunes. They don’t want to be interoperable because then you might realize you’re paying a huge premium for an inferior product.
- _jal 6y ago
  Mac keyboard shortcuts were created before Windows existed. And I don't think there was any keyboard-shortcut standard at all in X-land at the time. It was Microsoft who chose to be different here.
  - beloch 6y ago
    It's more a case of parallel and somewhat divergent evolution. Current PC keyboards, minus the Windows key, are nearly identical to The IBM model F that came with the IBM 3270 in 1983 [1] (the arrow keys are quite different). (Note: IBM is responsible for this, not Microsoft) The Apple IIe also came out in 1983 [2] but had a very different layout from what Apple uses today. The "open apple" and "closed apple" (two different modifiers) were all that was on the bottom row, similar to left and right command. Control was located above, and option was missing. Macintosh's keyboards kept evolving well after PC keyboards reached their final form, aside from the addition of the windows key in 1994 (that was microsoft, not surprisingly). [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_F_keyboard#/media/File:IBM_Model_F_122.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_F_keyboard#/media/File:I... [2]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Apple_IIe.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Apple_II... Edit: Just for giggles, here's the 1982 Commodore 64's keyboard: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Commodore-64-Computer-FL.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Commodor... And the 1984 Commodore Amiga 1000's keyboard: https://www.oldcomputr.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/commodore_amiga_1000-keyboard.jpg https://www.oldcomputr.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/commod... Every platform has had it's own ideas about what keyboards should look like. In terms of current user-base, the clear winner is the IBM PC keyboard. It was more justifiable for manufacturers to go their own way in the wild and wooley early 80's while everyone was inventing their own way of doing things. Today, when the same software runs on multiple platforms, it's an annoying problem. One more fun edit: Here's the 1977 Apple II keyboard. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Apple_II_typical_configuration_1977.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Apple_II... Just imagine using a computer with the power key right next to the Shift key and where the CTRL key is today!
chrisseaton 6y ago
This is why I don't bother investing too much time learning 'shortcuts' in the first place - it's a false economy.
- sidpatil 6y ago
  If you constantly have to switch between the two, I can see your point. But if you're going to be on one platform for the majority of your time, it wouldn't hurt to save a few minutes here and there by learning some shortcuts.
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  How long can you work on making a routine task more efficient before your spending more time than you save across 5 years. https://xkcd.com/1205/ https://xkcd.com/1205/ 5 seconds 5 times a day is 12 hours By 50 times a day you are spending 5 whole days. Seems objectively worthwhile.
tasogare 6y ago
I’m using the two platforms but I would like the reverse: Windows shortcuts on Mac. I like the fact ctrl is further away from c and v, making it easier to type. Also Mac shortcuts in general are pretty wild (not to say insane) with 3 or 4 key to type at once... when shortcuts would gain to be shortcuted, the UX isn’t too good.
- rbreaves 6y ago
  That's a feature built into macOS - you can easily change the location of your modifier keys on a mac and even if you couldn't Karabiner Elements works well and there are terminal based methods for rebinding as well.
  - bscphil 6y ago
    From what I remember, I wasn't able to rebind the function (fn) key without using Karabiner. Has that changed recently?
    - PascLeRasc 6y ago
      Yep, it shows up as remappable for me on Catalina.
ideamotor 6y ago
I switch very regularly and had difficulty until I begun to just swap out keyboards between macOS and Windows. That somehow ties my muscle memory for each OS much better. I pretty much have exclusive keyboards for different OS even if I use VMs on my laptop. Plus, after much searching, there is not a good non-Apple keyboard for the Mac and the Apple keyboards aren't good for Windows. One example: the right side of of the left ⌘ key should be vertically flush with the right side of the X key. This makes it much more natural to reach for all those ⌘ shortcuts (particularly ⌘ + r and ⌘ + t, and for me I have many ⌥ hotkeys setup with BTT). On most Windows keyboards, Alt is left of Spacebar, and Alt's right side lands vertically on the middle of the X key, not on the right side.
- kergonath 6y ago
  > there is not a good non-Apple keyboard for the Mac I have been very happy with my successive Matias keyboards over the years.
  - ideamotor 6y ago
    Ok, I spoke too soon, I see a TKL Matias with ⌘ aligned with X. I may have missed this one because when I search for a replacement I usually focus on mechanical keyboards. The mechanical Matias I see is not aligned so it's not for me at least.
    - kergonath 6y ago
      You're right. I never really paid attention to that, actually (my current one is a non-mechanical one, and the X is ~1mm to the left compared to the command key).
- uncledave 6y ago
  Durgod K320 works nicely with macOS. You can get replacement key tops from eBay for about $20 to get cmd/opt back etc
- Tsiklon 6y ago
  It’s not explicitly a Mac layout, but I find the HHKB layout to be quite comfortable for both Mac and Windows. But if you don’t like the home row positioning of the ctrl key you may find it problematic
kergonath 6y ago
> The PC and Linux worlds are not going to adopt Mac keyboard layouts. And that’s a damn shame, because they make much more sense. > As the one oddball computer manufacturer that uses their own layout, perhaps it's time for Apple to offer PC keyboard layouts as an option on their machines out of consideration for people who have to use multiple platforms. Lol no. I use Linux, Windows and macOS each about a third of the time (Linux for work, Windows because I have to, and macOS for fun and working from home), the last thing I would want is my Mac at home getting significantly worse just to reach the lowest common denominator. Besides, you can use any PC keyboard already if you really like the window key. The use of control as the modifier key for keyboard shortcuts is an unfortunate historical accident, not the better way.
- ungamedplayer 6y ago
  > the last thing I would want is my Mac at home getting significantly worse just to reach the lowest common denominator Yeah, then what would mac have going for it ?
nitrogen 6y ago
offer PC keyboard layouts as an option on their machines They actually do/did, in a combination of custom shortcuts in system settings, plus an obscure and ancient .plist to change input navigation shortcuts. But Electron ruined everything, because instead of understanding the underlying platform's input methods, apps like Slack hard-code mac-ish keyboard shortcuts and behavior of home/end keys.
klodolph 6y ago
> The PC and Linux worlds are not going to adopt Mac keyboard layouts. As the one oddball computer manufacturer that uses their own layout, perhaps it's time for Apple to offer PC keyboard layouts as an option on their machines out of consideration for people who have to use multiple platforms. I switch between Mac, Linux, and Windows. The Mac is the only one with a usable, consistent terminal. Linux and Windows both have really fucked up copy/paste. Shift+Insert, Control+Shift+V, right-click, middle-click… what a goddamn mess. For some reason, Windows, which was supposed to have “right-click brings up a contextual menu everywhere” decides to make right-click do some weird almost X11-like copy-pasting in the terminal. Linux at least has the half-sane Control+Shift+C and Control+Shift+V but there’s multiple clipboards, and different applications may only use a subset of those. Mac? ⌘C copy. ⌘V paste. Everywhere. Terminal, no terminal, same everywhere. Hands stay in center of keyboard where they belong. No reaching for the “insert” key, which is a recipe for typos. Let’s not make the Mac worse just to make things consistent.
- thefunnyman 6y ago
  I absolutely agree. I work on a Mac but have to remote into a windows machine daily and this still trips me up. The Microsoft Remote Desktop app had the option to keep some Mac shortcuts for copy paste and such but it’s still an absolute usability nightmare. I used windows machines an overwhelming majority of my life but I find the Mac OS shortcuts to just be much easier to remember and reach with one hand. For example cmd Q for quit as opposed to alt f4 just makes sense.
smnscu 6y ago
I work roughly 60/40 from my office (Windows workstation) and home (macOS laptop). I have a significant insight into how they work and their shortcuts; not only that, but I use Sublime Text and VSCode in both, and am familiar with the differences between macOS/Windows for those shortcuts. That being said, in terms of productivity, ergonomics, and things generally being well thought-out, Windows is nowhere near macOS. It does certain small things right, like Win-Shift-S copying to clipboard by default (you need to hold Ctrl while releasing the capture to get the same behaviour on macOS), and overall is much snappier due to macOS being a bloated mess. Overall, though, Windows is garbage for developers (yes, yes, if you're using Microsoft technologies or oblivious to what happens outside of your IDE you will probably be happy enough) -- and I have tried WSL2, Cygwin, working from a VM (yuck), and many other similar options. I've recently discovered VSCode's remote functionality (more specifically, how incredibly well it works), so I've set up an SSH box and can now seamlessly work from anywhere (side note, having tools that only serve you is incredibly fast if you're used to things like GitHub or managed CI).
SebastianKra 6y ago
> Different people will have a preference for one layout vs the other but, in reality, the layout that feels good is what you're used to. While it's true that a familiar system will initially feel better than an unknown alternative, this doesn't mean that some systems can't be better than others. From my personal experience and from the comments in this thread, I think it's safe to conclude that the Mac is better here.

by beloch 6y ago

datavirtue 6y ago

Welcome to my world

breakfastduck 6y ago

My main computer is a mac but I have to remote into windows machines often and switching between is horrible. I've remapped my gaming pc to mirror the mac layout because the instinct is so much stronger than whats written on the keys.

rbreaves 6y ago
I have done pretty extensive testing, but I can confirm that my Kinto app does work with your type of configuration. The RDP applications that work is mentioned in the readme.
- breakfastduck 6y ago
  Amazing. I can install applications (thankfully) on the RDP instance I connect to, so I shall definitely give it a whirl.

floydnoel 6y ago

as a person who loves Macs and their keyboard shortcuts, I'm really excited to find this project! and as somebody like yourself, who has to work on both platforms (Apple/PC) every day, I'm very happy it exists. would the answer to your problem not be a reciprocal library for Mac that ports over (or makes possible) your preferred shortcuts? I believe this already exists, which should be good news for you.

kova12 6y ago
I empathize with you, but from the other side. I got a Mac at work while being on Linux for a long time; and the differences in keyboard combos are driving me mad, so much that I don't even use said Mac anymore. The differences in keyboard layout are so unnecessary from technical point. The only reason for them to exist is to lock people into the corresponding ecosystem. Whoever got that going deserves get a swift kick in the nuts for every time I missed a key due to that nonsense
- favorited 6y ago
  > The only reason for them to exist is to lock people into the corresponding ecosystem Or maybe Mac users have had that keyboard layout for decades and are happy with it? Anyone who really wants a Windows-style layout could just change their own anyway, so people must not be that bothered.
- kergonath 6y ago
  > The differences in keyboard layout are so unnecessary from technical point. The only reason for them to exist is to lock people into the corresponding ecosystem. Surely you’re aware that these keyboard shortcuts have been in use on Macs for about a decade before Linux existed, right?
  - jamienicol 6y ago
    That's the same argument Emacs developers use to justify alt (sorry, "meta") + w as copy. But it's a terrible argument. (In the Mac case at least using cmd+c is superior, and even works in Emacs!)

jimbob45 6y ago

Apple’s MO all along has been lock-in to their ecosystem any way they can make it happen, whether it be through their usability, their OS, their App Store, or iTunes. They don’t want to be interoperable because then you might realize you’re paying a huge premium for an inferior product.

_jal 6y ago
Mac keyboard shortcuts were created before Windows existed. And I don't think there was any keyboard-shortcut standard at all in X-land at the time. It was Microsoft who chose to be different here.
- beloch 6y ago
  It's more a case of parallel and somewhat divergent evolution. Current PC keyboards, minus the Windows key, are nearly identical to The IBM model F that came with the IBM 3270 in 1983 [1] (the arrow keys are quite different). (Note: IBM is responsible for this, not Microsoft) The Apple IIe also came out in 1983 [2] but had a very different layout from what Apple uses today. The "open apple" and "closed apple" (two different modifiers) were all that was on the bottom row, similar to left and right command. Control was located above, and option was missing. Macintosh's keyboards kept evolving well after PC keyboards reached their final form, aside from the addition of the windows key in 1994 (that was microsoft, not surprisingly). [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_F_keyboard#/media/File:IBM_Model_F_122.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_F_keyboard#/media/File:I... [2]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Apple_IIe.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Apple_II... Edit: Just for giggles, here's the 1982 Commodore 64's keyboard: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Commodore-64-Computer-FL.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Commodor... And the 1984 Commodore Amiga 1000's keyboard: https://www.oldcomputr.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/commodore_amiga_1000-keyboard.jpg https://www.oldcomputr.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/commod... Every platform has had it's own ideas about what keyboards should look like. In terms of current user-base, the clear winner is the IBM PC keyboard. It was more justifiable for manufacturers to go their own way in the wild and wooley early 80's while everyone was inventing their own way of doing things. Today, when the same software runs on multiple platforms, it's an annoying problem. One more fun edit: Here's the 1977 Apple II keyboard. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Apple_II_typical_configuration_1977.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Apple_II... Just imagine using a computer with the power key right next to the Shift key and where the CTRL key is today!

chrisseaton 6y ago

This is why I don't bother investing too much time learning 'shortcuts' in the first place - it's a false economy.

sidpatil 6y ago
If you constantly have to switch between the two, I can see your point. But if you're going to be on one platform for the majority of your time, it wouldn't hurt to save a few minutes here and there by learning some shortcuts.
michaelmrose 6y ago
How long can you work on making a routine task more efficient before your spending more time than you save across 5 years. https://xkcd.com/1205/ https://xkcd.com/1205/ 5 seconds 5 times a day is 12 hours By 50 times a day you are spending 5 whole days. Seems objectively worthwhile.

tasogare 6y ago

I’m using the two platforms but I would like the reverse: Windows shortcuts on Mac. I like the fact ctrl is further away from c and v, making it easier to type. Also Mac shortcuts in general are pretty wild (not to say insane) with 3 or 4 key to type at once... when shortcuts would gain to be shortcuted, the UX isn’t too good.

rbreaves 6y ago
That's a feature built into macOS - you can easily change the location of your modifier keys on a mac and even if you couldn't Karabiner Elements works well and there are terminal based methods for rebinding as well.
- bscphil 6y ago
  From what I remember, I wasn't able to rebind the function (fn) key without using Karabiner. Has that changed recently?
  - PascLeRasc 6y ago
    Yep, it shows up as remappable for me on Catalina.

ideamotor 6y ago

I switch very regularly and had difficulty until I begun to just swap out keyboards between macOS and Windows. That somehow ties my muscle memory for each OS much better. I pretty much have exclusive keyboards for different OS even if I use VMs on my laptop. Plus, after much searching, there is not a good non-Apple keyboard for the Mac and the Apple keyboards aren't good for Windows. One example: the right side of of the left ⌘ key should be vertically flush with the right side of the X key. This makes it much more natural to reach for all those ⌘ shortcuts (particularly ⌘ + r and ⌘ + t, and for me I have many ⌥ hotkeys setup with BTT). On most Windows keyboards, Alt is left of Spacebar, and Alt's right side lands vertically on the middle of the X key, not on the right side.

kergonath 6y ago
> there is not a good non-Apple keyboard for the Mac I have been very happy with my successive Matias keyboards over the years.
- ideamotor 6y ago
  Ok, I spoke too soon, I see a TKL Matias with ⌘ aligned with X. I may have missed this one because when I search for a replacement I usually focus on mechanical keyboards. The mechanical Matias I see is not aligned so it's not for me at least.
  - kergonath 6y ago
    You're right. I never really paid attention to that, actually (my current one is a non-mechanical one, and the X is ~1mm to the left compared to the command key).
uncledave 6y ago
Durgod K320 works nicely with macOS. You can get replacement key tops from eBay for about $20 to get cmd/opt back etc
Tsiklon 6y ago
It’s not explicitly a Mac layout, but I find the HHKB layout to be quite comfortable for both Mac and Windows. But if you don’t like the home row positioning of the ctrl key you may find it problematic

kergonath 6y ago

> The PC and Linux worlds are not going to adopt Mac keyboard layouts. And that’s a damn shame, because they make much more sense. > As the one oddball computer manufacturer that uses their own layout, perhaps it's time for Apple to offer PC keyboard layouts as an option on their machines out of consideration for people who have to use multiple platforms. Lol no. I use Linux, Windows and macOS each about a third of the time (Linux for work, Windows because I have to, and macOS for fun and working from home), the last thing I would want is my Mac at home getting significantly worse just to reach the lowest common denominator. Besides, you can use any PC keyboard already if you really like the window key. The use of control as the modifier key for keyboard shortcuts is an unfortunate historical accident, not the better way.

ungamedplayer 6y ago
> the last thing I would want is my Mac at home getting significantly worse just to reach the lowest common denominator Yeah, then what would mac have going for it ?

nitrogen 6y ago

offer PC keyboard layouts as an option on their machines They actually do/did, in a combination of custom shortcuts in system settings, plus an obscure and ancient .plist to change input navigation shortcuts. But Electron ruined everything, because instead of understanding the underlying platform's input methods, apps like Slack hard-code mac-ish keyboard shortcuts and behavior of home/end keys.

klodolph 6y ago

> The PC and Linux worlds are not going to adopt Mac keyboard layouts. As the one oddball computer manufacturer that uses their own layout, perhaps it's time for Apple to offer PC keyboard layouts as an option on their machines out of consideration for people who have to use multiple platforms. I switch between Mac, Linux, and Windows. The Mac is the only one with a usable, consistent terminal. Linux and Windows both have really fucked up copy/paste. Shift+Insert, Control+Shift+V, right-click, middle-click… what a goddamn mess. For some reason, Windows, which was supposed to have “right-click brings up a contextual menu everywhere” decides to make right-click do some weird almost X11-like copy-pasting in the terminal. Linux at least has the half-sane Control+Shift+C and Control+Shift+V but there’s multiple clipboards, and different applications may only use a subset of those. Mac? ⌘C copy. ⌘V paste. Everywhere. Terminal, no terminal, same everywhere. Hands stay in center of keyboard where they belong. No reaching for the “insert” key, which is a recipe for typos. Let’s not make the Mac worse just to make things consistent.

thefunnyman 6y ago
I absolutely agree. I work on a Mac but have to remote into a windows machine daily and this still trips me up. The Microsoft Remote Desktop app had the option to keep some Mac shortcuts for copy paste and such but it’s still an absolute usability nightmare. I used windows machines an overwhelming majority of my life but I find the Mac OS shortcuts to just be much easier to remember and reach with one hand. For example cmd Q for quit as opposed to alt f4 just makes sense.

smnscu 6y ago

I work roughly 60/40 from my office (Windows workstation) and home (macOS laptop). I have a significant insight into how they work and their shortcuts; not only that, but I use Sublime Text and VSCode in both, and am familiar with the differences between macOS/Windows for those shortcuts. That being said, in terms of productivity, ergonomics, and things generally being well thought-out, Windows is nowhere near macOS. It does certain small things right, like Win-Shift-S copying to clipboard by default (you need to hold Ctrl while releasing the capture to get the same behaviour on macOS), and overall is much snappier due to macOS being a bloated mess. Overall, though, Windows is garbage for developers (yes, yes, if you're using Microsoft technologies or oblivious to what happens outside of your IDE you will probably be happy enough) -- and I have tried WSL2, Cygwin, working from a VM (yuck), and many other similar options. I've recently discovered VSCode's remote functionality (more specifically, how incredibly well it works), so I've set up an SSH box and can now seamlessly work from anywhere (side note, having tools that only serve you is incredibly fast if you're used to things like GitHub or managed CI).

SebastianKra 6y ago

> Different people will have a preference for one layout vs the other but, in reality, the layout that feels good is what you're used to. While it's true that a familiar system will initially feel better than an unknown alternative, this doesn't mean that some systems can't be better than others. From my personal experience and from the comments in this thread, I think it's safe to conclude that the Mac is better here.