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From buggies to buses, the first Black-owned US automaker did what few dared
- Huwyt_Nashi030 6y agoKeep an eye out for this subtly anti-White dogwhistle trend among many mainstream media oulets: "Black" is capitalised in every use, "white" never is
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- bilbo0s 6y agoThe first comment? Really guys? Just, wow. I was hoping we might get some elevated discussion about relative manufacturing feasibility between early 20th century America and early 21st century America. But here we are.
- fwn 6y agoI'm going to regret participating under a link with a racially charged bait, but I'm curious: What's the reason Ars Technica capitalizes the one ethnicity and not the other? Actual question, not a native speaker.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y agoTheir justification is that it's okay for black people form an identity behind their race, so they capitalize Black to emphasize they're talking about the Black identity. Yet they say whites can't because reasons. In reality, it's all an attempt to exploit the societal fear of racism in order for minorities to gain power and justify anti-white discrimination and shaming.
- andrewzah 6y ago"okay for black people form an identity behind their race" Probably because they get referred to as black and get discriminated against due to their physical appearance regardless of their actual heritage or where they're from? It's not so much a choice as something that they get constantly reminded about. Anecdotally speaking, there are Black communities, but I've never seen a "white" community (aside from white supremacist type groups)- just communities of nationalities or ethnicity. I grew up in Romanian communities and none of us ever used "white" as an identity. Not everything is about you or me.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y agoI get referred to as white. I put "white" on job applications and census forms. I face an increasing amount of discrimination, from affirmative action making it harder to get jobs to subtle cultural discrimination like this or seeing stereotypes everywhere. Growing up, we didn't have white communities. But I and my age group was raised under the ethos that we should judge each other not by the color of our skin, but by the character of our hearts. "Not everything is about you." Imagine saying that to a black person when they were complaining about perceived racism that you disagreed with.
- andrewzah 6y ago"I get referred to as white. I put "white" on job applications and census forms." So do I. And like every white person I know, if asked about identity, I state my heritage/background. Romanian/Romanian-American/American. "I face an increasing amount of discrimination, from affirmative action making it harder to get jobs to subtle cultural discrimination like this or seeing stereotypes everywhere." [Citation needed]. A lot (most?) companies still have issues with diversity because hiring is generally done via word of mouth, and it is likely among white people to have mostly white friends. edit: and as the sibling comment pointed out, there are tangible benefits that come with diverse teams. (In my own opinion, it is also concerning to equate hires of minority candidates with lesser quality candidates. This is simply unsubstantiated and not true.) Stereotypes have always existed. They're not appropriate regardless of the identity targeted, and reasonable people are aware of this. What "cultural discrimination" are you talking about? There is no "white" culture in the first place. "Imagine saying that to a black person when they were complaining about perceived racism that you disagreed with. " Good thing I'm not. I'm saying it here because every single time black people talk about identity, white people butt in and go "what about me?". Literally every single time. Black people cannot talk about the issues they face without interjections of "uh hey we face issues too". Except you and I don't face the same discrimination and struggles that Black Americans do, not even close. "But I and my age group was raised under the ethos that we should judge each other not by the color of our skin, but by the character of our hearts." Cute story, but we need to acknowledge the real and systemic issues that people face precisely due to their skin color. And that means talking about race and identity, not conveniently ignoring it.
- crazygringo 6y agoActual answer: Until recently, most publications didn't capitalize "white" or "black", but capitalized everything else ("Indian", "Native American", "Asian", etc.). Recently, there has been increasing recognition that Black isn't just a (lowercase) skin color, but an identity like the rest and thus ought to be given the same capital-letter-recognition "Black". A large number of publications have made this change in the past couple years. The reason "white" still isn't capitalized is because many people are uncomfortable recognizing white identity -- because in the past and still ongoing, that is often linked to white supremacism. So as long as capitalizing "White" continues to carry (even unintended) associations of white supremacism, it's probable that most publications will keep it lowercase. To be clear, I'm not expressing any opinions here as to whether this is right or wrong or desirable or not (edit: or even whether white identity exists). This is just a description of the reasons for things currently.
- andrewzah 6y ago"because many people are uncomfortable recognizing white identity" There is no unified "white" identity. I am white, my ethnicity is Romanian. There is no shared identity between me, and for example someone with German heritage. So to capitalize "White" is silly in my eyes. edit: unified may have been a poor choice here. "Shared" is what I was getting at. Of course people across the US have different experiences and opinions.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y agoThere's no unified black identity either though. There are millions of black people in both USA and Africa, but their cultures and lived experiences are so incredibly different. Not to mention the diversity within the country.
- andrewzah 6y ago...black people universally get discriminated in a systemic fashion in the US based on their appearance. This is not unique to any one state. Obviously people in different states lead different lives. It's still possible to have a shared identity through facing similar struggles and discrimination. Just because I grew up in IL and my cousin grew up in CA doesn't mean we can't have a shared identity as Romanian-Americans either. edit: I have amended this and my parent post to clarify I meant a shared experience, not a unified one.
- andrewzah 6y agoThey are doing it to disambiguate between the color black, and identity Black. [0] If your question is "why not african-american"? It's likely because not every black person is from Africa, or is American. Personally I think African-American is a poor term and Black American is better (if they're American, obviously). [0]: https://apnews.com/article/71386b46dbff8190e71493a763e8f45a https://apnews.com/article/71386b46dbff8190e71493a763e8f45a
- krapp 6y agoWhite isn't capitalized because white people tend to self-identify with other ethnic groups (Italian, Irish*, German, etc.) There is no "White" culture per se, outside of the historical revisionist beliefs of white supremacists. Black is a culture, and capitalized as such, because the descendants of the African slave diaspora brought to the US were denied the ability to identify with their country or ethnicity in the same way as white people, so the only identity they could form after getting their freedom was one based on their collective racial identity. American society wouldn't allow them to be anything other than "Black" so "Black" is what they became. * although interestingly, the Irish weren't always considered "white." Race is a weird social construct.
- jjeaff 6y agoItalians also weren't considered "white" for a while in early US history, I believe. The linguist John McWhorter mentioned on his podcast that he would personally capitalize white, just like Black, were it not for the fact that white supremacists started that practice long ago. And so they kind of ruined the usage since capitalizing white became indicative of that particular meaning (the supremacist one).
- cforrester 6y ago> Italians also weren't considered "white" for a while in early US history, I believe. I think this is more of a concept illustrating how arbitrary racial classifications are, rather than an actual reality. Historically, Italians in the Jim Crow era of American history were admitted to whites-only facilities and their marriages to people of British descent were not considered interracial, which I think shows handily that although they were mistreated based on their ethnicity, they were still considered white.
- selimthegrim 6y agoLouis Prima is a notable counterexample, having been barred from whites-only facilities during his career. He did take a role it was felt inappropriate for someone of African descent to take, so go figure.
- dang 6y agoPlease don't take HN threads into these extremely repetitive, generic ideological places. It just leads to tedious, ever-the-same flamewar. There's actually an interesting historical story to discuss about the OP, and comments like this (and the inevitable avalanche of replies) drown it out. If you're genuinely curious, there are ways of satisfying that which don't damage the forum, e.g. a web search.
- neartheplain 6y agoIn my opinion, it’s far more damaging to the forum when moderators stifle all discussion of this issue. There are respectful and productive things to be said about it. For one thing, the consensus among major newspapers on the capitalization of white/black is not absolute; the New York Times only capitalizes “Black,” while the Washington Post capitalizes both “Black” and “White.” For another thing, many white people find the selective capitalizing demonstrated in this article to be demeaning. I am one of them. Silencing that voice in particular strikes me as prejudiced moderation. Finally, non-Americans may be curious about this recent change in vernacular. They are entitled to answers.
- dang 6y agoIt is prejudiced moderation in the sense that we're prejudiced against generic topics, ideological flamewar, and extreme repetition. This topic covers all three.
- neartheplain 6y agoAs long as it remains unresolved among publishers and society at large, I expect that this topic and questions related to it will continue to come up. Is there a gold-standard earlier discussion you could link when such questions do arise, to explain the situation to newcomers such as the GP commenter with less chance of a flame war?
- dang 6y agoFlamewar topics will always come up. Intellectual curiosity is plainly not motivating the desire to bring them up or argue about them, so they're not what HN is for. I don't see why HN needs to host 'gold-standard' discussions about this, or why people are entitled to answers can't look elsewhere.
- devwastaken 6y agoDon't feed trolls, and don't look at the first comment as being the "best". It's there because it's the only top level comment. Downvote and post a better top level comment.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tired-dev 6y agoYeah, given the sorts of comments that gain traction around here, I wish I could say I was surprised, but I'm not.
- dang 6y ago"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Feeding trolls like this actually does more damage than they do. A flagkilled comment with no replies is the proper outcome for the GP—it's what minimizes damage to the container. We can come along and ban the account later. In egregious cases, heads-ups to hn@ycombinator.com are welcome.
- marshmallow_12 6y agoi'm impressed actually. How do you get banned anyway? I can't flag comments either, how do you do that? I won't ask what the comment was, but i can guess the nature...
- dang 6y agoAnyone with karma > 30 can flag comments - see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag. There are various ways to get banned, but the relevant ones in this case involve moderator intervention.
- marshmallow_12 6y agonot fair! I can only flag posts. I demand my rights! I hope the mod is reading. (maybe not, actually) [MESSAGE TO THE MOD: you're doing a great job, i'm good]
- marshmallow_12 6y agoOh, i see now how to do it. i always assumed it was a simple button. for some reason, not.
- marshmallow_12 6y agosorry for bringing this up, but your bio is beautifully poetic. I'm not into that sort of stuff, but i'm currently reevaluating my position. What does it mean, though?
- president 6y agoIdentity politics killed all rational thought and debate in America
- dang 6y agoPlease don't do this here.
- InitialLastName 6y agoThere are two reasons for this: - Other ethnicities tend to be capitalized, and Black people often don't actually have black skin, so the word is more of a description of a cultural identity than a color adjective - The use of capitalization in the word "white" has for ~a century been coopted by white supremacist organizations (of the openly racist, cross-burning, murdering people for looking at their daughters funny variety) as their own dogwhistle.
- dang 6y agoPlease don't feed the trolls. More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26429910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26429910
- zionic 6y agoFor the curious, this was changed in the AP style guide sometime between 2019-2020. Not making a value statement, just sharing.
- datavirtue 6y agoI used to live in the area and I pass through Greenfield often. Most of the buildings are likely still there and I don't think Greenfield ever recovered from the 1894 depression. It's also loaded with racists...quite the reversal. The only law enforcement around is in the next county over.
- stonlyb 6y agoOff the shelf hardware helped get them off the ground and scale but I wonder to what degree proprietary IP could have given them more of a long term advantage. Process innovation eventually leaks. It seems lack of access to capital played the biggest role in the eventual outcome.
- trynton 6y agoI have a great deal of admiration for someone who managed to succeed despite the obstacles placed in his path.
- JetAlone 6y agoAgreed, it's an inspiring story. The article briefly touches on his involvement in his community. That's an extremely important part of success, for just about anybody.
- solidsnack9000 6y agoThe article talks about why the Patterson company did not go on to become a big automaker like Ford. Although they say that, on the one hand, few of the small early automakers made it, and Patterson was ten years too late, they also say that it was surely due to systemic racism. It's an odd thing to say not because racism would not have been experienced by the Patterson company but because it doesn't seem like it explains what happened, given the article's more general points about the fate of most of the early automakers. While Frederick had the right idea, small firms like his own couldn’t compete for long with the mass-manufacturing might, and daily production capacity, of far larger automakers like Ford, General Motors, Willys, Studebaker, and others. Ford alone was building 10,000 cars a day, a number Patterson couldn’t begin to match. Beyond sheer manufacturing scale, Patterson also lacked the engineering and design resources of these large concerns. Considering the time frame, that was no doubt due to the fact that, as the company’s own ads state, they were “the only Negro Automobile Manufacturing Concern in the United States.” Systemic racism and prejudice of the time made it difficult for Patterson & Sons to attract the financing necessary to compete. And on top of that, they were a decade too late. If automaking had been undertaken a decade sooner, it’s possible that Patterson & Sons might have grown along with the industry into a larger manufacturer rather than remaining a small-time assembler—something the company never was as a carriage builder.
- JetAlone 6y ago_There have been more than 1,900 automobile manufacturers in the United States since the Duryea Motor Wagon Company sold its first automobile in Springfield, Massachussetts in 1896. Yet in the explosion of entrepreneurship that followed, only one American automaker has been founded and run by a Black individual: C.R. Patterson & Sons of Greenfield, Ohio._ The racism surely couldn't have helped. It already tells us something that this was the only automobile manufacturer founded and run by a Black man from among around 1900 competitors. I think the article suggests that if the discrimination hadn't made funding so difficult to acquire, they could have overcome their late entry. But it's hard to be sure 100% exactly what would have happened.
- wombatmobile 6y ago> It's an odd thing to say not because racism would not have been experienced by the Patterson company but because it doesn't seem like it explains what happened, Doesn't it? How about the quote you included from the article? Systemic racism and prejudice of the time made it difficult for Patterson & Sons to attract the financing necessary to compete
- artichokes 6y agoThe definition of racism is anything which does not advance power for black/brown peoples- so in this case consideration of any of the usual failures vs. market regarding product, capabilities, etc. are racist. An idea for a car, non-functional by all conventional notions of "movement", that whites will not give money towards- is correctly racist under this definition. All the words, all the sounds that you try to parse, comes all to the same conclusion- give me money, give me resources, give me status. Drive safe!
- dang 6y agoPlease do not take HN threads into ideological flamewar. We ban such accounts, because it destroys the curious conversation that this site is supposed to be for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- Grustaf 6y agoIf I were black and reading an article like this, I think it would feel more empowering and encouraging if it was written like any other article about a historic person, and just causally mentioned the founder's background. As it is, it doesn't feel empowering at all. Comparing it to something trivial from my own life, if I read an article about some surfer or skateboarder and he happens to be even older than I am, that makes me feel hopeful about improving my skills. But if the author again and again talks about how hard it is for older surfers and that it's basically a miracle that he even survives then I would feel the opposite. Yes I know it's not the same but still, it would be interesting to hear from an actual African-American what they feel about this kind of article.
- pyinstallwoes 6y agoCareful, that talk in these times will get you downvoted, it's not approved by the Ministry of Approved Thoughts. You don't want to get put on the critical revaluation of bias education list, do you?
- Grustaf 6y agoI know, but I’m genuinely puzzled by this. It just doesn’t seem to make sense to me.
- pyinstallwoes 6y agoIn 2048 the Party of Make Sense Again composed of sense-makers were still scratching their heads puzzled by the lack of sense-making in the world. Perhaps in 2148 it will be revealed why sense making is a dangerous ability when the Federation of Planets starts colonizing new worlds.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> If I were black and reading an article like this You have no idea what you would feel, because you aren't. > I think it would feel more empowering and encouraging if it was written like any other article about a historic person, and just causally mentioned the founders background. No, whitewashing the context wouldn't make it more more “empowering and encouraging”.in any sense, it would just rob it of honesty and relevance. > As it is, it doesn't feel empowering at all. Yeah, honest stories about the Black experience in the late 19th and early 20th Century in the US usually aren't, except in the sense that making people feel less alone in the deep struggles they still face and see their community facing is. That's not a problem with the storytelling. > Yes I know it's not the same but still, it would be interesting to hear from an actual African-American what they feel about this kind of article. As an actual Black American, it is, I guess, a fine piece of the struggle narrative, and notable as a reminder that the struggle was not then (and is not now) limited by either the geography of socioeconomic classes that are usually focussed on (though that focus, in both cases, is not without reason.) It's not some kind of transcendent work that will liberate you from the struggle just because you've consumed it, but that's hardly the point.
- Animats 6y agoThere's a somewhat better article, with more sources, about the company here.[1] They pivoted from cars, which had become a mass-produced item, to bus bodies and other specialty bodies. Those could be custom-built in small quantities. They supposedly made the transition from wood to metal, but had more trouble competing in metal, which is less about craftmanship and more about heavy machinery. [1] http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/p/patterson/patterson.htm http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/p/patterson/patterson.htm
- JohnL4 6y agoThis sent me down a HUGE rabbit hole, and I wound up here: https://uncpressblog.com/2020/02/17/author-interview-jill-d-snider-on-lucean-arthur-headen/ https://uncpressblog.com/2020/02/17/author-interview-jill-d-... , having somehow downloaded this entire book as pdf into my tablet.