7 ms·

Actually, I think there are some factual inaccuracies here, but I'm going to avoid a contest that resembles "no, you provide more references", and say what I kn

by lcall 6y ago

Actually, I think there are some factual inaccuracies here, but I'm going to avoid a contest that resembles "no, you provide more references", and say what I know personally from long observation. I'm a lifelong, devoted and imperfect member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who has had lessons to learn (and I trust/hope I have learned them and will keep learning); I'm not any kind of official rep. What I believe and understand to be doctrinally at the core of things, is that all but One have sinned (we are imperfect people in an imperfect world), which makes us unclean, and no unclean thing can dwell with God, who knows everything and has made a way for us to become clean, having learned some things. If we confess our sins (appropriately), and forsake them (meaning change, even if it takes a lifelong effort, keep trying always to improve and honestly go forward), then we are forgiven. Everyone over, say, 8, can understand enough of that. We can't deceive God. But we can be clean and forgiven, because Jesus Christ himself paid the price of our sins, if we choose to follow Him. And, honesty before an all-knowing God is more important than saving our lives, because we know life continues beyond mortality, and this knowledge is personal -- for me, it doesn't depend on what someone else said or might say, because I have learned it (enough for some decisions) for myself, not due to pressure or whatever. There are dear family members who have disaffiliated with the Church, openly, and we love them and they are always included in our lives, certainly not shunned! (That would be bad -- they are our family and we would be deeply sad otherwise -- similarly for many others, neighbors etc.) Freely making choices per one's honest conscience, in the absence of compulsion, is very central. And God will be the judge, not rumors or such, so what He thinks is vastly more important to me than what "people" think (though I should try not to make false impressions on "people", too). I think it is hard to blackmail someone who truly believes this. Jesus said (as I recall): ~ "...ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." And many other relevant things. (More on my personal views, linked from my profile. But I'm just me.) Individuals in any large group will have a variety of political or other opinions. Edit: and human flaws. Ultimately, we should love everyone (also a commandment), but in the final end, we don't answer to "people", and trust is ... earned by behavior over time (IMO).

lcall 6y ago
ps: the Handbook that desribes Church discipline is available online to all, and such discipline requires witnesses or confession (edit: or evidence, probably); so fabricated accusations, while probably painful, won't cause excommunication. There is also (to us) scripture that says Church discipline can only deprive one of membership, not of personal property or life, and that we should obey the law. Appeals are possible, and again, God knows everything anyway and things really can be OK. pps: I have lived in and visited a variety of places, and I read a lot. The Church is the best influence in my life, helping me and others I know, in some very hard times. A lot there.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > such discipline requires witnesses or confession (edit: or evidence, probably) Witnesses are straightforward: blackmail multiple members, or get some plants who are "new to the ward". Might take awhile to build up a ward-wide infiltration network, but it's likely worth it. Hell, we're talking about the same demographic that routinely falls for MLM schemes like dōTerra. Once you get a bit of a nucleus, a ward's espionage machine can very well be self-maintaining and decentralized, using peer pressure and some judicious application of scripture to guilt-trip people into being informants. As for evidence: that's the whole discussion here :) > There is also (to us) scripture that says Church discipline can only deprive one of membership Which is all that's really needed to be effective leverage.
  - lcall 6y ago
    The Book of Mormon says, IIRC 2 Ne 9: "Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell." This life isn't always fair, but we can trust Him to get it right in the end -- the important thing is that we are honest and never stop humbly trying to do what is right. I have learned we really can be OK. Edit: Which doesn't make it easy or less real -- but knowing it really helps me.
yellowapple 6y ago
> There are dear family members who have disaffiliated with the Church, openly, and we love them and they are always included in our lives, certainly not shunned! There are numerous former Mormons who have had the precise opposite experience. Doesn't take much time on, say, the "exmormon" subreddit to see the vast array of accounts of families ceasing communication. Yes, not all families will cut out their apostate members (some, like mine, have been approximately accepting of it - though to most of my Mormon family and friends I'm still pretty ambiguous around my apostasy, lol), but it's still a risk, and that risk can be leverage. Our faith - at least as portrayed by the Church - is one of conformity, and of social pressure to ensure that conformity. > And God will be the judge, not rumors or such, so what He thinks is vastly more important to me than what "people" think (though I should try not to make false impressions on "people", too). Sure, and that's fine and dandy until those rumors make it to your bishop and he takes you as dishonest during your next interview. And this assumes that the evidence is indeed fabricated. Give me a room full of Mormons and I'll give you a room full of closeted smokers, alcoholics, porn watchers, sexual "deviants", and - worst of all! - coffee drinkers. These people are "closeted" for good reason; if your argument around confession and forgiveness held water, they would have already confessed these things, and accordingly wouldn't be very "closeted" anymore, now would they? Humans are, well, human. Even ones that sincerely believe there to be a paradisical afterlife (and/or decreasingly-paradisical afterlives, as the case may be) waiting for them.

by lcall 6y ago

lcall 6y ago

ps: the Handbook that desribes Church discipline is available online to all, and such discipline requires witnesses or confession (edit: or evidence, probably); so fabricated accusations, while probably painful, won't cause excommunication. There is also (to us) scripture that says Church discipline can only deprive one of membership, not of personal property or life, and that we should obey the law. Appeals are possible, and again, God knows everything anyway and things really can be OK. pps: I have lived in and visited a variety of places, and I read a lot. The Church is the best influence in my life, helping me and others I know, in some very hard times. A lot there.

yellowapple 6y ago
> such discipline requires witnesses or confession (edit: or evidence, probably) Witnesses are straightforward: blackmail multiple members, or get some plants who are "new to the ward". Might take awhile to build up a ward-wide infiltration network, but it's likely worth it. Hell, we're talking about the same demographic that routinely falls for MLM schemes like dōTerra. Once you get a bit of a nucleus, a ward's espionage machine can very well be self-maintaining and decentralized, using peer pressure and some judicious application of scripture to guilt-trip people into being informants. As for evidence: that's the whole discussion here :) > There is also (to us) scripture that says Church discipline can only deprive one of membership Which is all that's really needed to be effective leverage.
- lcall 6y ago
  The Book of Mormon says, IIRC 2 Ne 9: "Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell." This life isn't always fair, but we can trust Him to get it right in the end -- the important thing is that we are honest and never stop humbly trying to do what is right. I have learned we really can be OK. Edit: Which doesn't make it easy or less real -- but knowing it really helps me.

yellowapple 6y ago

> There are dear family members who have disaffiliated with the Church, openly, and we love them and they are always included in our lives, certainly not shunned! There are numerous former Mormons who have had the precise opposite experience. Doesn't take much time on, say, the "exmormon" subreddit to see the vast array of accounts of families ceasing communication. Yes, not all families will cut out their apostate members (some, like mine, have been approximately accepting of it - though to most of my Mormon family and friends I'm still pretty ambiguous around my apostasy, lol), but it's still a risk, and that risk can be leverage. Our faith - at least as portrayed by the Church - is one of conformity, and of social pressure to ensure that conformity. > And God will be the judge, not rumors or such, so what He thinks is vastly more important to me than what "people" think (though I should try not to make false impressions on "people", too). Sure, and that's fine and dandy until those rumors make it to your bishop and he takes you as dishonest during your next interview. And this assumes that the evidence is indeed fabricated. Give me a room full of Mormons and I'll give you a room full of closeted smokers, alcoholics, porn watchers, sexual "deviants", and - worst of all! - coffee drinkers. These people are "closeted" for good reason; if your argument around confession and forgiveness held water, they would have already confessed these things, and accordingly wouldn't be very "closeted" anymore, now would they? Humans are, well, human. Even ones that sincerely believe there to be a paradisical afterlife (and/or decreasingly-paradisical afterlives, as the case may be) waiting for them.