5 ms·

Is this high-class money laundering, or something else?

by sk5t 6y ago

gruez 6y ago
If you wanted to launder money there surely has to be more discreet ways than making a highly unusual sale worth millions?
- themanmaran 6y ago
  Artwork has always been a popular way to launder money. Since its value is entirely subjective.
  - criddell 6y ago
    How does it work? Say I have $1 million dollars I need to launder. How does me buying or selling some artwork at an inflated value clean the money?
    - dagmx 6y ago
      Because it obfuscates the purpose of your money.
    - themanmaran 6y ago
      So say you have $1MM of dirty money. You go pick up a random painting, or scribble on some canvas yourself. Then get your art appraiser friend to say your painting is worth $1MM. You then sell that painting at auction to another friend for $1MM. Cash only. Private transaction. But the cash never actually changes hands. Your friend gets the painting, and you claim that the $1MM of dirty cash you had laying around was instead proceeds from the art sale. Now there are tons of other examples out there with different methods. But it generally all comes down to selling an object that cannot be objectively valued for an all cash price.
      - gruez 6y ago
        >You then sell that painting at auction to another friend for $1MM. Cash only. Private transaction. But that doesn't really solve the problem. Now rather than you having to explain to the IRS/FBI how you got that $1M bag of cash, your friend has to. It's really not any better than taking that $1M bag of cash, and using it to directly buy whatever you want (eg. a mansion).
- KaiserPro 6y ago
  Not always, property in london is a way to launder money, thats pretty public.
kkielhofner 6y ago
What's really interesting are the terms of any payment made using Ether: "Please note that you may elect to make payment of the purchase price for this lot in the cryptocurrency Ether. Payment in Ether must be made via a digital wallet transfer of Ether to Christie’s. The digital wallet must be maintained with Coinbase Custody Trust; Coinbase, Inc.; Fidelity Digital Assets Services, LLC; Gemini Trust Company, LLC; or Paxos Trust Company, LLC. Only Ether payments sent from digital wallets maintained at these platforms will be credited towards this lot purchase, and we will not recognize payments from digital wallets hosted at other exchanges or self-hosted wallets. The digital wallet must be registered to you, or, if you registered a bid as a company, then in the name of the company. You agree, upon our request, to provide documentation confirming that the Ether payment was made from a digital wallet registered in your name and maintained at one of the platforms listed above. Partial payments of a lot from multiple digital wallets will not be allowed." It should be noted that all of these exchanges are US-based and comply with all know your customer and anti-money laundering laws, rules, and programs. Doesn't mean that money laundering is impossible (US-based banks do it everyday) but it's interesting that they will take Ether but only from an extremely narrow list of whitelisted source Ether addresses. Also makes you wonder what happens if you (somehow) send $70,000,000 to Christie's Ether wallet from a non-approved address. Presumably they wouldn't touch it and transfer it back but I suppose you never know...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pavlov 6y ago
  > "makes you wonder what happens if you (somehow) send $70,000,000 to Christie's Ether wallet from a non-approved address" Probably no different from sending an unagreed wire to their bank account? They'll just refund, maybe subtracting $50 for "processing" or whatever.
  - tomp 6y ago
    I doubt it. That would mean getting their hands dirty with potentially illegal funds. If I was Christie’s I’d print the key on paper, send it to City’s most expensive lawyer firm, and delete any backups of the key.
menage 6y ago
Given that on https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/beeple-first-5000-days/beeple-b-1981-1/112924 https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/beeple-first-5000-days/be... they mention that they accept Ether, but only if it comes from an identifiable account at CoinBase or a few other exchanges (specifically not self-hosted wallets) it sounds like they're explicitly trying to avoid being used for money laundering.
vannevar 6y ago
Or a high class form of pump and dump. "Sell" a worthless digital asset to an accomplice for a crazy sum of money, refund the money under the table, and use the resulting press to sell more worthless digital assets to gullible marks.
- eli 6y ago
  It doesn't need to be that explicit. There's no doubt a group of people who already have large crypto holdings and who stand to make even more if NFTs take off. They can just buy and sell things amongst each other.
  - tomp 6y ago
    Indeed. What’s 60m for a cryptowhale who might make or lose that much with BTC daily moves.
  - sktrdie 6y ago
    Sure but you have to really trust each other. Oh wait, it can all be the same person!
- jl2718 6y ago
  This seems more plausible than money laundering. Probably also with physical art.

Is this high-class money laundering, or something else?

by sk5t 6y ago

Is this high-class money laundering, or something else?

If you wanted to launder money there surely has to be more discreet ways than making a highly unusual sale worth millions?

themanmaran 6y ago
Artwork has always been a popular way to launder money. Since its value is entirely subjective.
- criddell 6y ago
  How does it work? Say I have $1 million dollars I need to launder. How does me buying or selling some artwork at an inflated value clean the money?
  - dagmx 6y ago
    Because it obfuscates the purpose of your money.
  - themanmaran 6y ago
    So say you have $1MM of dirty money. You go pick up a random painting, or scribble on some canvas yourself. Then get your art appraiser friend to say your painting is worth $1MM. You then sell that painting at auction to another friend for $1MM. Cash only. Private transaction. But the cash never actually changes hands. Your friend gets the painting, and you claim that the $1MM of dirty cash you had laying around was instead proceeds from the art sale. Now there are tons of other examples out there with different methods. But it generally all comes down to selling an object that cannot be objectively valued for an all cash price.
    - gruez 6y ago
      >You then sell that painting at auction to another friend for $1MM. Cash only. Private transaction. But that doesn't really solve the problem. Now rather than you having to explain to the IRS/FBI how you got that $1M bag of cash, your friend has to. It's really not any better than taking that $1M bag of cash, and using it to directly buy whatever you want (eg. a mansion).
KaiserPro 6y ago
Not always, property in london is a way to launder money, thats pretty public.

kkielhofner 6y ago

What's really interesting are the terms of any payment made using Ether: "Please note that you may elect to make payment of the purchase price for this lot in the cryptocurrency Ether. Payment in Ether must be made via a digital wallet transfer of Ether to Christie’s. The digital wallet must be maintained with Coinbase Custody Trust; Coinbase, Inc.; Fidelity Digital Assets Services, LLC; Gemini Trust Company, LLC; or Paxos Trust Company, LLC. Only Ether payments sent from digital wallets maintained at these platforms will be credited towards this lot purchase, and we will not recognize payments from digital wallets hosted at other exchanges or self-hosted wallets. The digital wallet must be registered to you, or, if you registered a bid as a company, then in the name of the company. You agree, upon our request, to provide documentation confirming that the Ether payment was made from a digital wallet registered in your name and maintained at one of the platforms listed above. Partial payments of a lot from multiple digital wallets will not be allowed." It should be noted that all of these exchanges are US-based and comply with all know your customer and anti-money laundering laws, rules, and programs. Doesn't mean that money laundering is impossible (US-based banks do it everyday) but it's interesting that they will take Ether but only from an extremely narrow list of whitelisted source Ether addresses. Also makes you wonder what happens if you (somehow) send $70,000,000 to Christie's Ether wallet from a non-approved address. Presumably they wouldn't touch it and transfer it back but I suppose you never know...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pavlov 6y ago
> "makes you wonder what happens if you (somehow) send $70,000,000 to Christie's Ether wallet from a non-approved address" Probably no different from sending an unagreed wire to their bank account? They'll just refund, maybe subtracting $50 for "processing" or whatever.
- tomp 6y ago
  I doubt it. That would mean getting their hands dirty with potentially illegal funds. If I was Christie’s I’d print the key on paper, send it to City’s most expensive lawyer firm, and delete any backups of the key.

menage 6y ago

Given that on https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/beeple-first-5000-days/beeple-b-1981-1/112924 https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/beeple-first-5000-days/be... they mention that they accept Ether, but only if it comes from an identifiable account at CoinBase or a few other exchanges (specifically not self-hosted wallets) it sounds like they're explicitly trying to avoid being used for money laundering.

vannevar 6y ago

Or a high class form of pump and dump. "Sell" a worthless digital asset to an accomplice for a crazy sum of money, refund the money under the table, and use the resulting press to sell more worthless digital assets to gullible marks.

eli 6y ago
It doesn't need to be that explicit. There's no doubt a group of people who already have large crypto holdings and who stand to make even more if NFTs take off. They can just buy and sell things amongst each other.
- tomp 6y ago
  Indeed. What’s 60m for a cryptowhale who might make or lose that much with BTC daily moves.
- sktrdie 6y ago
  Sure but you have to really trust each other. Oh wait, it can all be the same person!
jl2718 6y ago
This seems more plausible than money laundering. Probably also with physical art.