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Redditor Explains Why Apple Continue Making Frail Power Cables

350 points by kmfrk 15y ago

kmfrk 15y ago
Full text, in case Apple catch wind of the comment: > I used to work for Apple and interfaced with every division in the company, and I know EXACTLY why this happened. It has nothing to do with trying to get customers to buy more replacement adapters, but rather with the hierarchy of power at Apple. > > But before I go into this, let me explain the engineering of a power cable. If you look at a power adapter cable for any non-Apple product, you'll notice some plastic "rings" where the plug transitions to the cable. These rings are called a strain relief. The purpose of a strain relief is to prevent the cable from bending at a severe angle if you bend the cable at the base. The strain relief allows the cable to have a nice, gentle curvature if you tweak the cable instead of bending at a severe 90 degree angle. This gentle curvature prevents the cable from being broken through repeated use. > > Now let's look at the hierarchy of power at Apple. As with any company, Apple consists of many divisions (Sales, Marketing, Customer Service, etc.) THE most powerful division at Apple is Industrial Design. For those of you unfamiliar with the term industrial design, this is the division that makes the decisions about the overall look and feel of Apple's products. And when I say "the most powerful", I mean that their decisions trump the decisions of any other division at Apple, including Engineering and Customer Service. > > Now it just so happens that the Industrial Design department HATES how a strain relief looks on a power adapter. They would much prefer to have a nice clean transition between the cable and the plug. Aesthetically, this does look nicer, but from an engineering point of view, it's pretty much committing reliability suicide. Because there is no strain relief, the cables fail at a very high rate because they get bent at very harsh angles. I'm sure that the Engineering division gave every reason in the world why a strain relief should be on an adapter cable, and Customer Service said how bad the customer experience would be if tons of adapters failed, but if industrial design doesn't like a strain relief, guess what, it gets removed.
- VMG 15y ago
  Do you think apple could delete that comment on reddit? How?
  - clistctrl 15y ago
    Legal pressure on the author.
Aloisius 15y ago
I understand the æsthetic decision, but there is no reason why Apple couldn't have made the wire that runs from the brick to your laptop detachable. That way I could actually replace it for a reasonable amount.
- owenmarshall 15y ago
  >I understand the aesthetic decision, but there is no reason why Apple couldn't have made the wire that runs from the brick to your laptop detachable. A detachable wire would violate Apple's aesthetic; thus, you can't detach it. You answer your own question. Does Apple not replace that for free like they do the iPhone/iPod chargers?
  - andrewpi 15y ago
    I've had mine replaced for free, but only after being accused by the 'Genius' of 'doing it wrong' by wrapping my cable around the provided tabs.
    - lurker19 15y ago
      The proper technique is ridiculously subtle. http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1630 http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1630 That support article is a spiritual ancestor of the Antennagate defense press event.
      - jonhendry 15y ago
        It's not that subtle. Just don't try to wrap it really tight, which would put a constant strain on the wire where it enters the brick that would last until you completely unwind the cord again. Frankly, everything in that document just looks like common sense.
  - runaway 15y ago
    The part that goes to the wall is detachable. What about making the other side detachable violates the aesthetic? Or am I thinking of something else?
chopsueyar 15y ago
I feel the explanation could fit in the headline.
quinndupont 15y ago
Damn... If I need to replace another power brick from Apple...
deleted 15y ago
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deleted 15y ago
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hollerith 15y ago
Two other places where aesthetic form trumps function in Apple keyboards and Macbooks: (1) arrow keys are much narrower (especially on the 11-inch Macbook Air) than on most notebooks (probably because unlike most notebook makers, Apple decided against breaking the "clean line" along the edge of the keyboard closest to the typist). (2) the axis on which the two halves of the "clamshell" (the bottom half and the screen half) turn is in a different place than on most notebooks. In particular, on a Macbook, the axis is between the top and bottom surfaces of the bottom half of the clamshell whereas on most notebooks it is about .3 inches (whatever is just enough to allow the two halves to fold all the way together) above the top surface of the bottom half (and more or less in line with the plane of the screen whereas on Macbooks it is about .3 inches from this plane). The probable reason for this choice is that it gives Macbooks a distinctive look even though the way the other makers do it seems more practical to me (because the notebook is more secure when it is not resting on a flat horizontal surface and because the probability of disaster is lower if the notebook is open on the floor and someone catches the screen half with their foot). Since I do not have the patience to create diagrams, I will stop here even though I realize many readers probably did not get what I mean from just this textual description.
- GHFigs 15y ago
  Another way of visualizing (2) is to look at a hardback book or binder and imagine the top and bottom edges of the spine as two different possible hinges.
- wtallis 15y ago
  As I recall, back in the PowerBook days, Apple touted how their new hinge design reduced the overall height of the notebook when open. As compared with the previous PowerBooks (which had much thicker bases), the titanium PowerBooks had a much lower profile, without really sacrificing anything except the ability to bend the display all the way back.
  - hollerith 15y ago
    --and to have the front of the notebook off the ground (e.g., resting on/against my knee) while the back is on the ground. Well, you can do that with a Macbook, but (1) you stress the hinge and (2) you will probably move the screen a little.
parbo 15y ago
Why isn't the iPod/iPhone/iPad connector using the magsafe design?
- cgislason 15y ago
  Simple: it carries data. If the power cord on your laptop is yanked off for a minute it's usually not a big deal. If you disconnect the iOS device cable you could interrupt a data transfer. There is a higher risk to disconnection.
  - bxr 15y ago
    It is USB, and the host could lose power at any time (it doesn't have to be a laptop). Communication interruption is a likely case they should plan for. A more probable explanation is that even with a magnet the devices are light enough that a yank on the cable would send the device flying before the magnet connection came loose.
    - cgislason 15y ago
      I'm sure they do plan for interruption, but with magsafe you invite it, in a sense. Especially on a portable device. You're probably right that the physics of the magnet don't make it as useful. That makes me wonder how thoroughly Apple has investigated it.
- ugh 15y ago
  Those two cables do use the same design. I believe that the magsafe cables are a bit more durable and I think that's mostly because those cables have (necessarily) more isolating rubber.
- bonzoesc 15y ago
  The MagSafe design has four fairly large pins. The iPod Dock Connector has about forty tiny ones. It wouldn't work well mechanically.
  - kgermino 15y ago
dmix 15y ago
Design isn't just about aesthetics, its about balancing aesthetics AND functionality. Apple's designers certainly knows this. This was a poor design choice on their part, not just the design department taking precedent over engineering and customer service. The designers are personally responsible, not just the structure
- mirkules 15y ago
  There is no reason they couldn't take a flimsy piece of a plastic tube and cover the ugly-but-functional rings on the old style adapters. That way the rings retain functionality, and they are covered, everyone is happy. When the tube breaks, it just exposes the "ugly" rings, but the cable won't actually break. Why they couldn't do this - I don't know. But there must be a good technical reason for it - if I -a software person- can think of something like that, I'm sure they already thought of it too
  - flamingbuffalo 15y ago
    well, that still wouldn't satisfy the designers because now they have a "flimsy" plastic tube on their adapter. (not saying it's not a good idea, my pile of broken cables is evidence of that!)
    - mirkules 15y ago
      I think if it was any harder than "flimsy" (on a scale from flimsy to unbendable), the stress angle would happen at the end of the stress relief part, which would be the same thing as not having the stress relief part. So, I think there needs to be some compromise that leverages the durability of the old model, but the design of the new model (I think it's better to have a more functionally-durable product, than design-durable product)
      - chopsueyar 15y ago
        I've often thought about cutting the power cable to be able to slide on some heat-shrink tubing and then re-solder the severed cable. ...or using a hot glue gun to 'decorate' a flexible, protective layer around the wire/connector.
dmix 15y ago
"tl;dr: Apple is run by idiots." - Reddit comment This is why I much prefer HN for any technical discussion.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  If you appreciate the conversation brought to you by HN, why are you just dumping apparently inferior comments from other sites here instead of actually making a contribution?
  - dmix 15y ago
    I was making a criticism of content in the link which is what we're discussing in this thread. Are we not? The comment in question had 60+ upvotes. I also made a valid contribution to this thread earlier: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2642344 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2642344
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      1) It was a meta-criticism. Of the site, not the content. 2) It serves no purpose but to drag HN down to the level of Reddit.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
staunch 15y ago
So Engineering should come up with a solution that isn't ugly. Problem solved.
ugh 15y ago
Sounds like a reasonable tradeoff to me. I can understand why some people might not think that way but don't be surprised that there are some people who do.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- Niten 15y ago
  These poorly-designed adapters have a history of shorting out and catching fire. Yes, I am surprised that anybody would think "looks nice" is a more important feature than "won't burn our customers' houses down".
  - ugh 15y ago
    If that is indeed a problem then that’s a problem. I don’t know. Stats?
  - asadotzler 15y ago
    Can you point me to cases of houses burning down? I've no doubt it's possible, but lots of things are possible. I got a small flame from mine when it burned out but it was short-lived and would probably have had to have been sitting in a basket of tinder to cause any serious damage to anything beyond the cord.
shii 15y ago
It's funny how any link to reddit.com is always upvoted like a rocket.
- BrandonM 15y ago
  I very rarely see Reddit submissions; they generally are for very insightful or interesting comments, often from primary sources.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
RobAtticus 15y ago
I wonder if this applies to the problem I've had ever since I've gotten a MBP in the fall. I am now on my 4th charger. No matter how I handle the adapter, it still manages to stop working within 3-4 months. The first one was probably my fault as I didn't keep the brick as ventilated as I could've, so I think it eventually fried itself. The second one is still a mystery as I tried to use it one day and it didn't work. No LED, no charge. The third one had a slow death where it would take more and more jiggling and manipulating the cord to get it to work. I don't get it. I wrap the cord around the little hinge things they have, keep them ventilated, and they still crap out on me. By far my biggest gripe with this MBP. If anybody else found a reliable way to stop this from happening, please let me know.
- axxl 15y ago
  To provide a counterpoint, I've had my MacbookPro for over 3 years now and still have the same power cable and adapter as when I bought it. I never wrap it, toss it around in my bag with all my other junk, carry it in all weather, and I use it every day. My connection works fine and my brick hasn't overheated. Not to say you're not having those issues, just that there are good experiences and bad experiences with every product.
  - warp 15y ago
    My experience is similar, I still use the power brick which came with my first gen macbook (2006?). I do wrap the thin cable around the little hinges when I take it with me.
    - hollerith 15y ago
      I hope you wrap it in a figure-8 pattern rather than a circular pattern (to prevent twisting the cable).
      - RobAtticus 15y ago
        Maybe this is the place where I've been going wrong. Although I was simply following the way it was done at the Apple store I got it from. We'll see!
adamesque 15y ago
Except, there are strain relief features built in to Apple power adapters. Power Adapter: http://cl.ly/0r2n2S2z1b3K0L1E0R3t http://cl.ly/0r2n2S2z1b3K0L1E0R3t LED Cinema Display Power Adapter: http://www.cl.ly/3i1B3R142q0S25223q2U http://www.cl.ly/3i1B3R142q0S25223q2U These may not be adequate, but clearly Apple industrial design has taken a pass at the problem. Anybody have photos of older power adapters to see if that sheathing has always been there?
- baguasquirrel 15y ago
  Some teams may be more experienced than others? I just noticed the strain relief on my latest-gen power adapter. I never noticed that before. It is so cool.
- radicaldreamer 15y ago
  They've gotten better recently. I think the best example of this is the USB to dock connector cables, where the strain relief for the phone/iPod end is woefully inadequate.
- ugh 15y ago
  I have a 2007 magsafe power adapter. It looks pretty much the same.
- sil3ntmac 15y ago
  The OP is referring to Apple's iPhone power/usb connector cable, as seen in this picture: http://i.imgur.com/yAywo.jpg http://i.imgur.com/yAywo.jpg. The dock connector strain relief is decidedly weaker (I have had two or three break on me personally) than other Apple products. One thing that is interesting is how Apple's Industrial Design team, mentioned in the post, affected the design of the new Macbook power adaptors (like the one you linked to, http://www.cl.ly/0r2n2S2z1b3K0L1E0R3t http://www.cl.ly/0r2n2S2z1b3K0L1E0R3t). The old ones had the cord coming out perpendicular to the laptop. I liked that design a lot better than the new style, which is a bit awkward to plug in and leaves you either: 1. With a cord facing out the back of the laptop, then (probably) looping around 180 degrees and back to the power outlet, or 2. With the cord running parallel next to the laptop, completely blocking the ethernet port. Obviously neither of these solutions is streamlined or Apple-like, so I wonder if the ID dept made the trade-off of a parallel connector with minimal strain relief, or a perpendicular connector with built-in strain relief.
msutherl 15y ago
For me the problem is not that they bend and break, but that they melt! See: http://www.google.com/search?q=magsafe+melted http://www.google.com/search?q=magsafe+melted But before I go into this, let me explain the engineering of a power cable. If you look at a power adapter cable for any non-Apple product, you'll notice some metal "spikes" where the plug transitions to the cable. These spikes are called a heat sink. The purpose of a heat sink is to prevent the cable from heating to a severe degree if you use the charger for an extended period. The heat sink allows the cable to have a nice dissipation of heat instead of heating up and melting.
- ak217 15y ago
  Sorry, I have no idea which spikes you're talking about. Could you elaborate or find a picture?
- chopsueyar 15y ago
  Actually, I think using the proper gauge wire prevents the heat buildip and melting. As the power cable becomes twisted and crinked, the wires fray, causing the same amount of current to run over less wire, turning the wire into a toaster heating element.
kjell 15y ago
If you don't think apple did a good enough job: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kjell/5818859629/in/photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/kjell/5818859629/in/photostream
tobylane 15y ago
Apples' designer's choice, or what seems to be a small heat/fire problem covered by warranty? I haven't heard of anyone's laptop being damaged by this, and the only people paying are out of warranty. It's a bother I don't want to see, but at least they cover it.
dstorrs 15y ago
Here's a much simpler explanation: Because the cables cost $30 and revenue is good.
TuxPirate 15y ago
Here is a picture that shows descibed problem on such cable: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaako/2316658032/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaako/2316658032/
- chopsueyar 15y ago
  I've always had that occur on the other end, where the wire meets the connector.
blendergasket 15y ago
Yep, I'm on my second adapter for my MacBook. First broke between the adapter and the cord going to my computer. The second sits beside me with that same spot covered in duct tape. It's REALLY frustrating since the replacement adapter was $80 and it's less than a year old.
- jonhendry 15y ago
  Is there something about your usage, or the way you arrange things, that might contribute? Do you wind the cord tightly?
dexen 15y ago
I recall seeing some (non-Apple) hardware with case-to-cable transition designed as an inverted strain relief. Instead of a semi-rigid tube extending from device, the function was performed by proper curvature of the hole itself; nothing extended beyond the profile except the cable. I'm having hard time describing it properly, but the hole walls had specific profile, elliptical extending outward. Pretty much like the big end of a trumpet. The most you could bend the cable was to make it touch the hole wall, and that profile of the wall was good enough to prevent cable cracking. One disadvantage is that this kind of solution takes up some space insede of the case...
- jonah 15y ago
  The place I've seen this is actually on a certain generation of the apple laptop power adapter. http://km.support.apple.com/library/APPLE/APPLECARE_ALLGEOS/TS1725/TS1725-7.jpg http://km.support.apple.com/library/APPLE/APPLECARE_ALLGEOS/... Found under "7. Check for strain relief issues." on this page: http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1725 http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1725 I always thought it was a great idea, but they didn't use it for long so it must have drawbacks. [edit] I believe it was used on the aluminum powerbooks.
zyb09 15y ago
Planned Obsolence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence). Yes Apple is doing it, does it surprise anybody? edit: well thanks for the downvotes, I know RDF is strong here but consider how they removed the strain rings, how they charge $30 for a cable and why they use a proprietary port. Making cable is no rocket-science, this is definitely planned.
- jonhendry 15y ago
  Maybe they charge $30 for the cable as a signal that customers should be a little careful with it, even though it comes 'free' with an iPod/iPad/iPhone.
mmaunder 15y ago
I know you hn turkeys hate reddit but the resulting comment thread is f'ing hilarious.
scotty79 15y ago
Great. Now I know why cable fails. From other sources I know why GPU failed (twice, and more to come, as fix by heating GPU to 200C is temporary). Once I'll figure why battery swollen to thrice the original size (thank gods it didn't exploded or spilled toxic substance on somebodies lap) then I'll know why my girlfriends mac book is such a pain in the ass.
shiven 15y ago
This looks like a decent solution: www.macmagsaver.com I am not affiliated with them in any way. Though, I will be ordering one very soon.
pedalpete 15y ago
The unfortunate part I find is that many companies are following Apple in this 'design trumps all' to their detriment. How often are you actually wrapping up a power adapter, and bending the cord to obscure angles? Compared to your headphones, or phone charging plug. It seems most headphone manufacturers have moved away from relief rings, and that results in much shorter lifetime for the headphones due to failure at this point. I've got my zune charge cord here, and it doesn't have these rings either. Kindle power cord has one small relief on either edge (but doesn't get used as much anyway. Am I giving Apple too much credit? Did they start this trend? or has this poor design always existed?
molecularbutter 15y ago
in other words, why apple makes such good looking products
squidbot 15y ago
My reply, I think it may not have made reddit as I've never posted before: I'm calling BS on this whole thread. The reason for the breakage is in the green circles, not the red ones: http://i.imgur.com/EYSo5.jpg http://i.imgur.com/EYSo5.jpg The 2007 cables had small buttons on the sides that you had to press to disengage the connector from the device. This meant you had to pull on the body of the connector to remove it. The 2009 design removes the buttons and the catches, which means the plug can be removed by yanking on the cable. It's the yanking on the cable that is causing the problem in the image, you can tell because the wire sleeve is pulled back from the connecter rather than split horizontally, which is what would happen if it was a strain relief issue. Yanking from the cable rather than the connector affects all cables. Apple connectors typically fit very snugly in their sockets (which is a good thing generally) which means it takes more force to pull them out, consequently pulling out the wires as well. It's not a problem unique to Apple by any means. Ever have a pair of headphones that start to crackle when you touch the connector? Same problem. Apple cords do indeed have strain relief, and they are fine for typical use. They may not hold up as well as a longer relief when bent at high angles consistently, but generally they do the job they need to do when sticking out the side of a device. Though I like the button design, if I were to guess why Apple removed the buttons, is because I'll bet people were still pulling on the cords to try to remove the connector and doing far worse damage to cord and/or socket due to the mechanical connection between the two.
- pyre 15y ago
  > if I were to guess why Apple removed the buttons Seems more likely that the ID people wanted a smaller connector, though that's just speculation.
  - Groxx 15y ago
    I think there's a practical reason for smaller connectors, actually: Shorter connectors mean less leverage. The shorter it is, the less likely it is to damage the internal plug / motherboard / case, which is essentially irreplaceable. Certainly in comparison with a far cheaper cord.
- pak 15y ago
icarus_drowning 15y ago
I guess I'm the only one who hasn't had any problems with a Mag Safe adapter in the 3 years I've owned a MacBook Pro?
grandalf 15y ago
Is this really an issue? I have never heard anyone say anything but good things about mag-safe adapters. I keep wishing the patent would expire so that all consumer devices could use them.
themal 15y ago
I like Apple's hardware, but they seem to be useless at power cables and batteries for their laptops. What makes matters worse is the replacement parts are so expensive. I ended up removing the battery permanently because it grew too big for the compartment. I also cut open the power cable so that the wires could be rejoined and taped again. I never had these problems with ThinkPads... sigh.
jsz0 15y ago
Is there actually any evidence to suggest Apple's 34-pin dock cables fail more often than others? I've owned 34-pin dock devices going back about 8 years now and I cannot recall ever having a broken dock cable. I have no doubt it does happen from time to time but from my own personal experience it doesn't seem any more or less common than other types of cables. I know plenty of people who lose them or want a second one to charge at work or carry in their backpack but where's the tar and feather brigade at Apple Stores over this? Why aren't my friends and family coming to me with mysterious charge/sync problems? At $30/pop if these cables were failing at a very high rate I would expect quite a lot more public outrage. It may be that since iPods and iPhones are replaced fairly often, and include a new cable, people have a cache of spares? If so doesn't that alone kind of shoot down the designed-to-fail argument? Why include a new cable? Wouldn't the increased support costs from telephone/in-store support for these problems be far larger than selling $30 cables? It seems like the typical Internet conspiracy that doesn't really make any sense when you start to look at the details and notice there's absolutely no evidence to support the original claim being offered.
- jonhendry 15y ago
  I've never had a problem with a dock cable. Also, you can get cheap dock cables for under $5, just not name-brand ones. For that matter, I've never had a problem with macbook power adapter cords, either.
kabdib 15y ago
In the late 80s, Apple bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design molds. They simulated plastic flow and helped them do fewer turns of the injection molds they used for computer cases. Makes sense, considering that each mold cost upward of half a million dollars. ---- The "Industrial Design is King" thing is true at other companies as well. I've seen horribly broken products go out the door, where the fixes involve making ID changes, but the ID changes couldn't be made to happen because of (a) the lead time -- usually a year -- and / or (b) it would have destroyed the "cool look" of the product in someone's eyes.
gsivil 15y ago
Does anybody know if the adapters are covered by the warranty?
chrisjsmith 15y ago
Mine is fine (it's the smaller of the two without the release clips). Unfortunately the USB plug on the other end has split AFTER the strain relief resulting in sticky tape bodge.
scriptproof 15y ago
So, if I summarize correctly the red comment, they choosen the new design because someone at Apple prefers it.
runjake 15y ago
Am I the only person who doesn't have a problem with this? Am I the only person who removes dock (and MagSafe) connectors by pulling on the plug, not the cable? Heck, I'm not even OCD. I'm pretty lazy and I still do it this way. Apple headphones on the other hand, I go through 2-3 pairs a year (due to rain and the rigors of running). Fortunately, the Apple Store just sends me replacements without much hassle at all.

350 points by kmfrk 15y ago

kmfrk 15y ago

Full text, in case Apple catch wind of the comment: > I used to work for Apple and interfaced with every division in the company, and I know EXACTLY why this happened. It has nothing to do with trying to get customers to buy more replacement adapters, but rather with the hierarchy of power at Apple. > > But before I go into this, let me explain the engineering of a power cable. If you look at a power adapter cable for any non-Apple product, you'll notice some plastic "rings" where the plug transitions to the cable. These rings are called a strain relief. The purpose of a strain relief is to prevent the cable from bending at a severe angle if you bend the cable at the base. The strain relief allows the cable to have a nice, gentle curvature if you tweak the cable instead of bending at a severe 90 degree angle. This gentle curvature prevents the cable from being broken through repeated use. > > Now let's look at the hierarchy of power at Apple. As with any company, Apple consists of many divisions (Sales, Marketing, Customer Service, etc.) THE most powerful division at Apple is Industrial Design. For those of you unfamiliar with the term industrial design, this is the division that makes the decisions about the overall look and feel of Apple's products. And when I say "the most powerful", I mean that their decisions trump the decisions of any other division at Apple, including Engineering and Customer Service. > > Now it just so happens that the Industrial Design department HATES how a strain relief looks on a power adapter. They would much prefer to have a nice clean transition between the cable and the plug. Aesthetically, this does look nicer, but from an engineering point of view, it's pretty much committing reliability suicide. Because there is no strain relief, the cables fail at a very high rate because they get bent at very harsh angles. I'm sure that the Engineering division gave every reason in the world why a strain relief should be on an adapter cable, and Customer Service said how bad the customer experience would be if tons of adapters failed, but if industrial design doesn't like a strain relief, guess what, it gets removed.

VMG 15y ago
Do you think apple could delete that comment on reddit? How?
- clistctrl 15y ago
  Legal pressure on the author.

Aloisius 15y ago

I understand the æsthetic decision, but there is no reason why Apple couldn't have made the wire that runs from the brick to your laptop detachable. That way I could actually replace it for a reasonable amount.

owenmarshall 15y ago
>I understand the aesthetic decision, but there is no reason why Apple couldn't have made the wire that runs from the brick to your laptop detachable. A detachable wire would violate Apple's aesthetic; thus, you can't detach it. You answer your own question. Does Apple not replace that for free like they do the iPhone/iPod chargers?
- andrewpi 15y ago
  I've had mine replaced for free, but only after being accused by the 'Genius' of 'doing it wrong' by wrapping my cable around the provided tabs.
  - lurker19 15y ago
    The proper technique is ridiculously subtle. http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1630 http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1630 That support article is a spiritual ancestor of the Antennagate defense press event.
    - jonhendry 15y ago
      It's not that subtle. Just don't try to wrap it really tight, which would put a constant strain on the wire where it enters the brick that would last until you completely unwind the cord again. Frankly, everything in that document just looks like common sense.
- runaway 15y ago
  The part that goes to the wall is detachable. What about making the other side detachable violates the aesthetic? Or am I thinking of something else?

chopsueyar 15y ago

I feel the explanation could fit in the headline.

quinndupont 15y ago

Damn... If I need to replace another power brick from Apple...

deleted 15y ago

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deleted 15y ago

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hollerith 15y ago

Two other places where aesthetic form trumps function in Apple keyboards and Macbooks: (1) arrow keys are much narrower (especially on the 11-inch Macbook Air) than on most notebooks (probably because unlike most notebook makers, Apple decided against breaking the "clean line" along the edge of the keyboard closest to the typist). (2) the axis on which the two halves of the "clamshell" (the bottom half and the screen half) turn is in a different place than on most notebooks. In particular, on a Macbook, the axis is between the top and bottom surfaces of the bottom half of the clamshell whereas on most notebooks it is about .3 inches (whatever is just enough to allow the two halves to fold all the way together) above the top surface of the bottom half (and more or less in line with the plane of the screen whereas on Macbooks it is about .3 inches from this plane). The probable reason for this choice is that it gives Macbooks a distinctive look even though the way the other makers do it seems more practical to me (because the notebook is more secure when it is not resting on a flat horizontal surface and because the probability of disaster is lower if the notebook is open on the floor and someone catches the screen half with their foot). Since I do not have the patience to create diagrams, I will stop here even though I realize many readers probably did not get what I mean from just this textual description.

GHFigs 15y ago
Another way of visualizing (2) is to look at a hardback book or binder and imagine the top and bottom edges of the spine as two different possible hinges.
wtallis 15y ago
As I recall, back in the PowerBook days, Apple touted how their new hinge design reduced the overall height of the notebook when open. As compared with the previous PowerBooks (which had much thicker bases), the titanium PowerBooks had a much lower profile, without really sacrificing anything except the ability to bend the display all the way back.
- hollerith 15y ago
  --and to have the front of the notebook off the ground (e.g., resting on/against my knee) while the back is on the ground. Well, you can do that with a Macbook, but (1) you stress the hinge and (2) you will probably move the screen a little.

parbo 15y ago

Why isn't the iPod/iPhone/iPad connector using the magsafe design?

cgislason 15y ago
Simple: it carries data. If the power cord on your laptop is yanked off for a minute it's usually not a big deal. If you disconnect the iOS device cable you could interrupt a data transfer. There is a higher risk to disconnection.
- bxr 15y ago
  It is USB, and the host could lose power at any time (it doesn't have to be a laptop). Communication interruption is a likely case they should plan for. A more probable explanation is that even with a magnet the devices are light enough that a yank on the cable would send the device flying before the magnet connection came loose.
  - cgislason 15y ago
    I'm sure they do plan for interruption, but with magsafe you invite it, in a sense. Especially on a portable device. You're probably right that the physics of the magnet don't make it as useful. That makes me wonder how thoroughly Apple has investigated it.
ugh 15y ago
Those two cables do use the same design. I believe that the magsafe cables are a bit more durable and I think that's mostly because those cables have (necessarily) more isolating rubber.
bonzoesc 15y ago
The MagSafe design has four fairly large pins. The iPod Dock Connector has about forty tiny ones. It wouldn't work well mechanically.
- kgermino 15y ago

dmix 15y ago

Design isn't just about aesthetics, its about balancing aesthetics AND functionality. Apple's designers certainly knows this. This was a poor design choice on their part, not just the design department taking precedent over engineering and customer service. The designers are personally responsible, not just the structure

mirkules 15y ago
There is no reason they couldn't take a flimsy piece of a plastic tube and cover the ugly-but-functional rings on the old style adapters. That way the rings retain functionality, and they are covered, everyone is happy. When the tube breaks, it just exposes the "ugly" rings, but the cable won't actually break. Why they couldn't do this - I don't know. But there must be a good technical reason for it - if I -a software person- can think of something like that, I'm sure they already thought of it too
- flamingbuffalo 15y ago
  well, that still wouldn't satisfy the designers because now they have a "flimsy" plastic tube on their adapter. (not saying it's not a good idea, my pile of broken cables is evidence of that!)
  - mirkules 15y ago
    I think if it was any harder than "flimsy" (on a scale from flimsy to unbendable), the stress angle would happen at the end of the stress relief part, which would be the same thing as not having the stress relief part. So, I think there needs to be some compromise that leverages the durability of the old model, but the design of the new model (I think it's better to have a more functionally-durable product, than design-durable product)
    - chopsueyar 15y ago
      I've often thought about cutting the power cable to be able to slide on some heat-shrink tubing and then re-solder the severed cable. ...or using a hot glue gun to 'decorate' a flexible, protective layer around the wire/connector.

dmix 15y ago

"tl;dr: Apple is run by idiots." - Reddit comment This is why I much prefer HN for any technical discussion.

burgerbrain 15y ago
If you appreciate the conversation brought to you by HN, why are you just dumping apparently inferior comments from other sites here instead of actually making a contribution?
- dmix 15y ago
  I was making a criticism of content in the link which is what we're discussing in this thread. Are we not? The comment in question had 60+ upvotes. I also made a valid contribution to this thread earlier: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2642344 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2642344
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    1) It was a meta-criticism. Of the site, not the content. 2) It serves no purpose but to drag HN down to the level of Reddit.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

staunch 15y ago

So Engineering should come up with a solution that isn't ugly. Problem solved.

ugh 15y ago

Sounds like a reasonable tradeoff to me. I can understand why some people might not think that way but don't be surprised that there are some people who do.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Niten 15y ago
These poorly-designed adapters have a history of shorting out and catching fire. Yes, I am surprised that anybody would think "looks nice" is a more important feature than "won't burn our customers' houses down".
- ugh 15y ago
  If that is indeed a problem then that’s a problem. I don’t know. Stats?
- asadotzler 15y ago
  Can you point me to cases of houses burning down? I've no doubt it's possible, but lots of things are possible. I got a small flame from mine when it burned out but it was short-lived and would probably have had to have been sitting in a basket of tinder to cause any serious damage to anything beyond the cord.

shii 15y ago

It's funny how any link to reddit.com is always upvoted like a rocket.

BrandonM 15y ago
I very rarely see Reddit submissions; they generally are for very insightful or interesting comments, often from primary sources.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]

RobAtticus 15y ago

I wonder if this applies to the problem I've had ever since I've gotten a MBP in the fall. I am now on my 4th charger. No matter how I handle the adapter, it still manages to stop working within 3-4 months. The first one was probably my fault as I didn't keep the brick as ventilated as I could've, so I think it eventually fried itself. The second one is still a mystery as I tried to use it one day and it didn't work. No LED, no charge. The third one had a slow death where it would take more and more jiggling and manipulating the cord to get it to work. I don't get it. I wrap the cord around the little hinge things they have, keep them ventilated, and they still crap out on me. By far my biggest gripe with this MBP. If anybody else found a reliable way to stop this from happening, please let me know.

axxl 15y ago
To provide a counterpoint, I've had my MacbookPro for over 3 years now and still have the same power cable and adapter as when I bought it. I never wrap it, toss it around in my bag with all my other junk, carry it in all weather, and I use it every day. My connection works fine and my brick hasn't overheated. Not to say you're not having those issues, just that there are good experiences and bad experiences with every product.
- warp 15y ago
  My experience is similar, I still use the power brick which came with my first gen macbook (2006?). I do wrap the thin cable around the little hinges when I take it with me.
  - hollerith 15y ago
    I hope you wrap it in a figure-8 pattern rather than a circular pattern (to prevent twisting the cable).
    - RobAtticus 15y ago
      Maybe this is the place where I've been going wrong. Although I was simply following the way it was done at the Apple store I got it from. We'll see!

adamesque 15y ago

Except, there are strain relief features built in to Apple power adapters. Power Adapter: http://cl.ly/0r2n2S2z1b3K0L1E0R3t http://cl.ly/0r2n2S2z1b3K0L1E0R3t LED Cinema Display Power Adapter: http://www.cl.ly/3i1B3R142q0S25223q2U http://www.cl.ly/3i1B3R142q0S25223q2U These may not be adequate, but clearly Apple industrial design has taken a pass at the problem. Anybody have photos of older power adapters to see if that sheathing has always been there?

baguasquirrel 15y ago
Some teams may be more experienced than others? I just noticed the strain relief on my latest-gen power adapter. I never noticed that before. It is so cool.
radicaldreamer 15y ago
They've gotten better recently. I think the best example of this is the USB to dock connector cables, where the strain relief for the phone/iPod end is woefully inadequate.
ugh 15y ago
I have a 2007 magsafe power adapter. It looks pretty much the same.
sil3ntmac 15y ago
The OP is referring to Apple's iPhone power/usb connector cable, as seen in this picture: http://i.imgur.com/yAywo.jpg http://i.imgur.com/yAywo.jpg. The dock connector strain relief is decidedly weaker (I have had two or three break on me personally) than other Apple products. One thing that is interesting is how Apple's Industrial Design team, mentioned in the post, affected the design of the new Macbook power adaptors (like the one you linked to, http://www.cl.ly/0r2n2S2z1b3K0L1E0R3t http://www.cl.ly/0r2n2S2z1b3K0L1E0R3t). The old ones had the cord coming out perpendicular to the laptop. I liked that design a lot better than the new style, which is a bit awkward to plug in and leaves you either: 1. With a cord facing out the back of the laptop, then (probably) looping around 180 degrees and back to the power outlet, or 2. With the cord running parallel next to the laptop, completely blocking the ethernet port. Obviously neither of these solutions is streamlined or Apple-like, so I wonder if the ID dept made the trade-off of a parallel connector with minimal strain relief, or a perpendicular connector with built-in strain relief.

msutherl 15y ago

For me the problem is not that they bend and break, but that they melt! See: http://www.google.com/search?q=magsafe+melted http://www.google.com/search?q=magsafe+melted But before I go into this, let me explain the engineering of a power cable. If you look at a power adapter cable for any non-Apple product, you'll notice some metal "spikes" where the plug transitions to the cable. These spikes are called a heat sink. The purpose of a heat sink is to prevent the cable from heating to a severe degree if you use the charger for an extended period. The heat sink allows the cable to have a nice dissipation of heat instead of heating up and melting.

ak217 15y ago
Sorry, I have no idea which spikes you're talking about. Could you elaborate or find a picture?
chopsueyar 15y ago
Actually, I think using the proper gauge wire prevents the heat buildip and melting. As the power cable becomes twisted and crinked, the wires fray, causing the same amount of current to run over less wire, turning the wire into a toaster heating element.

kjell 15y ago

If you don't think apple did a good enough job: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kjell/5818859629/in/photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/kjell/5818859629/in/photostream

tobylane 15y ago

Apples' designer's choice, or what seems to be a small heat/fire problem covered by warranty? I haven't heard of anyone's laptop being damaged by this, and the only people paying are out of warranty. It's a bother I don't want to see, but at least they cover it.

dstorrs 15y ago

Here's a much simpler explanation: Because the cables cost $30 and revenue is good.

TuxPirate 15y ago

Here is a picture that shows descibed problem on such cable: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaako/2316658032/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaako/2316658032/

chopsueyar 15y ago
I've always had that occur on the other end, where the wire meets the connector.

blendergasket 15y ago

Yep, I'm on my second adapter for my MacBook. First broke between the adapter and the cord going to my computer. The second sits beside me with that same spot covered in duct tape. It's REALLY frustrating since the replacement adapter was $80 and it's less than a year old.

jonhendry 15y ago
Is there something about your usage, or the way you arrange things, that might contribute? Do you wind the cord tightly?

dexen 15y ago

I recall seeing some (non-Apple) hardware with case-to-cable transition designed as an inverted strain relief. Instead of a semi-rigid tube extending from device, the function was performed by proper curvature of the hole itself; nothing extended beyond the profile except the cable. I'm having hard time describing it properly, but the hole walls had specific profile, elliptical extending outward. Pretty much like the big end of a trumpet. The most you could bend the cable was to make it touch the hole wall, and that profile of the wall was good enough to prevent cable cracking. One disadvantage is that this kind of solution takes up some space insede of the case...

jonah 15y ago
The place I've seen this is actually on a certain generation of the apple laptop power adapter. http://km.support.apple.com/library/APPLE/APPLECARE_ALLGEOS/TS1725/TS1725-7.jpg http://km.support.apple.com/library/APPLE/APPLECARE_ALLGEOS/... Found under "7. Check for strain relief issues." on this page: http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1725 http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1725 I always thought it was a great idea, but they didn't use it for long so it must have drawbacks. [edit] I believe it was used on the aluminum powerbooks.

zyb09 15y ago

Planned Obsolence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence). Yes Apple is doing it, does it surprise anybody? edit: well thanks for the downvotes, I know RDF is strong here but consider how they removed the strain rings, how they charge $30 for a cable and why they use a proprietary port. Making cable is no rocket-science, this is definitely planned.

jonhendry 15y ago
Maybe they charge $30 for the cable as a signal that customers should be a little careful with it, even though it comes 'free' with an iPod/iPad/iPhone.

mmaunder 15y ago

I know you hn turkeys hate reddit but the resulting comment thread is f'ing hilarious.

scotty79 15y ago

Great. Now I know why cable fails. From other sources I know why GPU failed (twice, and more to come, as fix by heating GPU to 200C is temporary). Once I'll figure why battery swollen to thrice the original size (thank gods it didn't exploded or spilled toxic substance on somebodies lap) then I'll know why my girlfriends mac book is such a pain in the ass.

shiven 15y ago

This looks like a decent solution: www.macmagsaver.com I am not affiliated with them in any way. Though, I will be ordering one very soon.

pedalpete 15y ago

The unfortunate part I find is that many companies are following Apple in this 'design trumps all' to their detriment. How often are you actually wrapping up a power adapter, and bending the cord to obscure angles? Compared to your headphones, or phone charging plug. It seems most headphone manufacturers have moved away from relief rings, and that results in much shorter lifetime for the headphones due to failure at this point. I've got my zune charge cord here, and it doesn't have these rings either. Kindle power cord has one small relief on either edge (but doesn't get used as much anyway. Am I giving Apple too much credit? Did they start this trend? or has this poor design always existed?

molecularbutter 15y ago

in other words, why apple makes such good looking products

squidbot 15y ago

My reply, I think it may not have made reddit as I've never posted before: I'm calling BS on this whole thread. The reason for the breakage is in the green circles, not the red ones: http://i.imgur.com/EYSo5.jpg http://i.imgur.com/EYSo5.jpg The 2007 cables had small buttons on the sides that you had to press to disengage the connector from the device. This meant you had to pull on the body of the connector to remove it. The 2009 design removes the buttons and the catches, which means the plug can be removed by yanking on the cable. It's the yanking on the cable that is causing the problem in the image, you can tell because the wire sleeve is pulled back from the connecter rather than split horizontally, which is what would happen if it was a strain relief issue. Yanking from the cable rather than the connector affects all cables. Apple connectors typically fit very snugly in their sockets (which is a good thing generally) which means it takes more force to pull them out, consequently pulling out the wires as well. It's not a problem unique to Apple by any means. Ever have a pair of headphones that start to crackle when you touch the connector? Same problem. Apple cords do indeed have strain relief, and they are fine for typical use. They may not hold up as well as a longer relief when bent at high angles consistently, but generally they do the job they need to do when sticking out the side of a device. Though I like the button design, if I were to guess why Apple removed the buttons, is because I'll bet people were still pulling on the cords to try to remove the connector and doing far worse damage to cord and/or socket due to the mechanical connection between the two.

pyre 15y ago
> if I were to guess why Apple removed the buttons Seems more likely that the ID people wanted a smaller connector, though that's just speculation.
- Groxx 15y ago
  I think there's a practical reason for smaller connectors, actually: Shorter connectors mean less leverage. The shorter it is, the less likely it is to damage the internal plug / motherboard / case, which is essentially irreplaceable. Certainly in comparison with a far cheaper cord.
pak 15y ago

icarus_drowning 15y ago

I guess I'm the only one who hasn't had any problems with a Mag Safe adapter in the 3 years I've owned a MacBook Pro?

grandalf 15y ago

Is this really an issue? I have never heard anyone say anything but good things about mag-safe adapters. I keep wishing the patent would expire so that all consumer devices could use them.

themal 15y ago

I like Apple's hardware, but they seem to be useless at power cables and batteries for their laptops. What makes matters worse is the replacement parts are so expensive. I ended up removing the battery permanently because it grew too big for the compartment. I also cut open the power cable so that the wires could be rejoined and taped again. I never had these problems with ThinkPads... sigh.

jsz0 15y ago

Is there actually any evidence to suggest Apple's 34-pin dock cables fail more often than others? I've owned 34-pin dock devices going back about 8 years now and I cannot recall ever having a broken dock cable. I have no doubt it does happen from time to time but from my own personal experience it doesn't seem any more or less common than other types of cables. I know plenty of people who lose them or want a second one to charge at work or carry in their backpack but where's the tar and feather brigade at Apple Stores over this? Why aren't my friends and family coming to me with mysterious charge/sync problems? At $30/pop if these cables were failing at a very high rate I would expect quite a lot more public outrage. It may be that since iPods and iPhones are replaced fairly often, and include a new cable, people have a cache of spares? If so doesn't that alone kind of shoot down the designed-to-fail argument? Why include a new cable? Wouldn't the increased support costs from telephone/in-store support for these problems be far larger than selling $30 cables? It seems like the typical Internet conspiracy that doesn't really make any sense when you start to look at the details and notice there's absolutely no evidence to support the original claim being offered.

jonhendry 15y ago
I've never had a problem with a dock cable. Also, you can get cheap dock cables for under $5, just not name-brand ones. For that matter, I've never had a problem with macbook power adapter cords, either.

kabdib 15y ago

In the late 80s, Apple bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design molds. They simulated plastic flow and helped them do fewer turns of the injection molds they used for computer cases. Makes sense, considering that each mold cost upward of half a million dollars. ---- The "Industrial Design is King" thing is true at other companies as well. I've seen horribly broken products go out the door, where the fixes involve making ID changes, but the ID changes couldn't be made to happen because of (a) the lead time -- usually a year -- and / or (b) it would have destroyed the "cool look" of the product in someone's eyes.

gsivil 15y ago

Does anybody know if the adapters are covered by the warranty?

chrisjsmith 15y ago

Mine is fine (it's the smaller of the two without the release clips). Unfortunately the USB plug on the other end has split AFTER the strain relief resulting in sticky tape bodge.

scriptproof 15y ago

So, if I summarize correctly the red comment, they choosen the new design because someone at Apple prefers it.

runjake 15y ago

Am I the only person who doesn't have a problem with this? Am I the only person who removes dock (and MagSafe) connectors by pulling on the plug, not the cable? Heck, I'm not even OCD. I'm pretty lazy and I still do it this way. Apple headphones on the other hand, I go through 2-3 pairs a year (due to rain and the rigors of running). Fortunately, the Apple Store just sends me replacements without much hassle at all.