4 ms·

Sure! Feel free to expand on it I would be interested in hearing what you have to say. I hope it's at-least nuanced enough to understand that people can be turn

Sure! Feel free to expand on it I would be interested in hearing what you have to say. I hope it's at-least nuanced enough to understand that people can be turned away from a programing language's community when it starts to focus on political movements and other aspects unrelated to the language itself even if they don't disagree? That's not even accounting for how perhaps the focus exclusively on American issues could leave the the rest of the world feeling less welcome?

monocasa 6y ago
FWIW, BLM wasn't just an American movement but has had sizeable protests across the world as well.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  The protests in America don’t make much sense as it is—obviously we would expect police deaths to mirror trends in crime, socio-economic status, etc. But in countries like the U.K. where one third of their police killings in a whole year are a terrorist who was in the middle of a stabbing spree? That’s just ideological fashion.
  - monocasa 6y ago
    > ...obviously we would expect police deaths to mirror trends in crime, socio-economic status... If you look at the data in aggragate, I believe you'll find that there's a disparity even when controlling for factors like that. > But in countries like the U.K. where one third of their police killings in a whole year are a terrorist who was in the middle of a stabbing spree? That’s just ideological fashion. British police don't carry firearms in the general case so obviously police deaths aren't a large issue for British BLM, but there's still very much a racial disparity in justice system encounters that still exists despite controlling for the kinds of factors you listed previously. Different sentences for the same crime kind of stuff.
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      > If you look at the data in aggragate, I believe you'll find that there's a disparity even when controlling for factors like that. I’m almost certain that this isn’t the case. I think the crime rate alone accounts for the whole disparity and then some. I’ll dig up sources when I have more time. My best steel man is that police are profiling blacks in their killings; blacks do commit more crimes, but whether or not a particular black person commits crimes may not feature strongly in whether or not he is likely to be killed by police. In any case, the more important detail is that we didn’t even talk about it. Anyone who suggested as much was immediately dismissed as a racist; the media never even entertained the question. > British police don't carry firearms in the general case so obviously police deaths aren't a large issue for British BLM, but there's still very much a racial disparity in justice system encounters that still exists despite controlling for the kinds of factors you listed previously. Different sentences for the same crime kind of stuff. Perhaps, but it’s very strange to me that the U.K. would respond to subtler forms of alleged discrimination the similarly to how the US responded to graphic videos of black men being killed by police. I won’t argue the point since it’s all speculation either way.
      - robobob 6y ago
        Look at this thread, a perfect example: We’re now not talking about the go developer survey, lost focus on the topic. Why? I want tech, enough social problems everywhere else I look.
        throwaway894345 6y ago
        I agree with you, but we got here because the go developers plastered their controversial political views all over their tech site and people are remarking that this might be part of the reason why people aren’t (per the survey) feeling as welcome in the community.
  - pstuart 6y ago
    > The protests in America don’t make much sense as it is It makes sense to millions of Americans, including those who are not directly impacted by it. If by "protest" you mean the violence that has sprouted up at these events, then no, that makes no sense at all for the cause itself. But it does make perfect sense for those who want to delegitimize it, e.g., https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-supremacist-trying-to-incite-floyd-rioting/571932272/?refresh=true https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-...
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      No, I mean the cause and it’s rationale. The “disparity thus discrimination” logic with no mind for other factors. The absolute refusal of anyone to look at any of the equally heinous murders of white Americans by police. I don’t want to delegitimize BLM; I don’t know for fact that the BLM folks are wrong and I remain open minded, but I’m disgusted by so much of how it played out—the dodgy rhetoric, the agitators, the divisiveness, the racial dogma, the violence, and much more. There are some good things that have come out of it—90% of Americans favor police reforms; it raised awareness for that, although we’ll see if it manifests in (substantial, non-symbolic) policy. Anyway, I hope the bad is all in the past and we can move forward.
pstuart 6y ago
Wait, so you don't disagree with the BLM movement but you think its in poor taste to include it as a sign of support? Being that the tech industry has historically been dominated by white men, wouldn't you think that any PoC visitors might feel more welcome? Why would a non-US visitor feel unwelcome seeing that? Why w And as far as it being a political message, that's also a matter of branding. It's been actively demonized by one particular party, whereas most of its supporters likely consider it to be apolitical -- simply about social justice.
- dsnr 6y ago
  > Why would a non-US visitor feel unwelcome seeing that? As a non-US visitor with some knowledge of history I am extremely put off by the banner supporting an extremist communist organization, like it is nothing. Just have a look at their original manifesto that is now removed from their website (wayback machine has it).
- rattray 6y ago
  (disclaimer, I have donated to BLM causes and don't consume Fox News) I think you have you answer in there - anyone who watches/reads Fox News or similar thinks that BLM is something very different than you think it is. You can choose to write off anyone in the world who watches conservative TV, but you can't call yourself welcoming for doing so.

monocasa 6y ago

FWIW, BLM wasn't just an American movement but has had sizeable protests across the world as well.

throwaway894345 6y ago
The protests in America don’t make much sense as it is—obviously we would expect police deaths to mirror trends in crime, socio-economic status, etc. But in countries like the U.K. where one third of their police killings in a whole year are a terrorist who was in the middle of a stabbing spree? That’s just ideological fashion.
- monocasa 6y ago
  > ...obviously we would expect police deaths to mirror trends in crime, socio-economic status... If you look at the data in aggragate, I believe you'll find that there's a disparity even when controlling for factors like that. > But in countries like the U.K. where one third of their police killings in a whole year are a terrorist who was in the middle of a stabbing spree? That’s just ideological fashion. British police don't carry firearms in the general case so obviously police deaths aren't a large issue for British BLM, but there's still very much a racial disparity in justice system encounters that still exists despite controlling for the kinds of factors you listed previously. Different sentences for the same crime kind of stuff.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    > If you look at the data in aggragate, I believe you'll find that there's a disparity even when controlling for factors like that. I’m almost certain that this isn’t the case. I think the crime rate alone accounts for the whole disparity and then some. I’ll dig up sources when I have more time. My best steel man is that police are profiling blacks in their killings; blacks do commit more crimes, but whether or not a particular black person commits crimes may not feature strongly in whether or not he is likely to be killed by police. In any case, the more important detail is that we didn’t even talk about it. Anyone who suggested as much was immediately dismissed as a racist; the media never even entertained the question. > British police don't carry firearms in the general case so obviously police deaths aren't a large issue for British BLM, but there's still very much a racial disparity in justice system encounters that still exists despite controlling for the kinds of factors you listed previously. Different sentences for the same crime kind of stuff. Perhaps, but it’s very strange to me that the U.K. would respond to subtler forms of alleged discrimination the similarly to how the US responded to graphic videos of black men being killed by police. I won’t argue the point since it’s all speculation either way.
    - robobob 6y ago
      Look at this thread, a perfect example: We’re now not talking about the go developer survey, lost focus on the topic. Why? I want tech, enough social problems everywhere else I look.
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        I agree with you, but we got here because the go developers plastered their controversial political views all over their tech site and people are remarking that this might be part of the reason why people aren’t (per the survey) feeling as welcome in the community.
- pstuart 6y ago
  > The protests in America don’t make much sense as it is It makes sense to millions of Americans, including those who are not directly impacted by it. If by "protest" you mean the violence that has sprouted up at these events, then no, that makes no sense at all for the cause itself. But it does make perfect sense for those who want to delegitimize it, e.g., https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-supremacist-trying-to-incite-floyd-rioting/571932272/?refresh=true https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-...
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    No, I mean the cause and it’s rationale. The “disparity thus discrimination” logic with no mind for other factors. The absolute refusal of anyone to look at any of the equally heinous murders of white Americans by police. I don’t want to delegitimize BLM; I don’t know for fact that the BLM folks are wrong and I remain open minded, but I’m disgusted by so much of how it played out—the dodgy rhetoric, the agitators, the divisiveness, the racial dogma, the violence, and much more. There are some good things that have come out of it—90% of Americans favor police reforms; it raised awareness for that, although we’ll see if it manifests in (substantial, non-symbolic) policy. Anyway, I hope the bad is all in the past and we can move forward.

pstuart 6y ago

Wait, so you don't disagree with the BLM movement but you think its in poor taste to include it as a sign of support? Being that the tech industry has historically been dominated by white men, wouldn't you think that any PoC visitors might feel more welcome? Why would a non-US visitor feel unwelcome seeing that? Why w And as far as it being a political message, that's also a matter of branding. It's been actively demonized by one particular party, whereas most of its supporters likely consider it to be apolitical -- simply about social justice.

dsnr 6y ago
> Why would a non-US visitor feel unwelcome seeing that? As a non-US visitor with some knowledge of history I am extremely put off by the banner supporting an extremist communist organization, like it is nothing. Just have a look at their original manifesto that is now removed from their website (wayback machine has it).
rattray 6y ago
(disclaimer, I have donated to BLM causes and don't consume Fox News) I think you have you answer in there - anyone who watches/reads Fox News or similar thinks that BLM is something very different than you think it is. You can choose to write off anyone in the world who watches conservative TV, but you can't call yourself welcoming for doing so.