6 ms·

it's not a "japanese thing", it was done already everywhere else in the world i don't understand this pseudo fascination for japan also, it solves nothing, it

it's not a "japanese thing", it was done already everywhere else in the world i don't understand this pseudo fascination for japan also, it solves nothing, it is an excuse to not focus on the real problem the housing market and the insane amount of speculation around it

Clewza313 6y ago
There's actually lots of interesting things about the Japanese housing market: it's not a speculative investment (most houses lose value), much of the housing is designed to be disposable (lifespan 20-30 years), rents are quite affordable even in the biggest cities but commutes are long and size tends to be tiny by Western standards. But I agree that prefabs aren't particularly interesting.
- jdshaffer 6y ago
  Pretty much here in Japan the houses ARE considered disposable -- at least if you go to buy a house or build a house you quickly realize that the big chunk of money is for the land and even though building your house will be expensive, it'll be worth nearly nothing when/if you go to sell it. (That's why I've hesitated to buy a house here...)
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    Sounds like you can get a "second hand" house very cheaply. Or is the catch that they're so cheaply built that you don't want to live in them?
    - brigandish 6y ago
      > Or is the catch that they're so cheaply built that you don't want to live in them? Yes, or at least they'll need a big refurb.
    - bobthepanda 6y ago
      Keep in mind that one factor the rest of the world probably doesn’t have is earthquake codes. Japan has very stringent building regulations and they usually get updated after major events. The most recent revisions were in 1981 and 2000; a house is going to have poor resale value if it will kill you in the event of an earthquake.
      - baybal2 6y ago
        Well, yet they still build with wood...
        Tor3 6y ago
        But these days there's a steel frame keeping the top storey from falling down into the lower storey, as will typically happen in an earthquake with older style homes.
        bluGill 6y ago
        Wood works well in earthquakes - when you design for it. Wood is flexible so shaking it won't damage anything structural and so repair is cosmetic. (the above is strongly an over simplification!) That is why Japan builds with wood a lot instead of brick/rock: after the earthquake you have a safe place to live while you repair it. Repairs might be so expensive that you rebuild, but at least you can a safe roof while building the new place. Not to mention if you were inside you don't die of building collapse.
        baybal2 6y ago
        > Wood works well in earthquakes - when you design for it. I highly doubt that "designing for it" really beats inherently stronger building materials to specifically choose wood with its many, many other disadvantages over something else.
        bluGill 6y ago
        Actually it does. Wood is flexible in ways the most of your stronger materials are not. Iron works, but it is more expensive and doesn't really have any advantage until you are going tall (tall being about 6 floors, but consult an engineer for details) There is a reason Japan traditionally used wood, it works well in general. The design for it parts of wood are not hard - I don't know Japanese history, but I'd guess they figured it out well B.C.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  The long commute can be explained, IMO, in part by the transportation allowance, where employers are allowed to subsidize up to 1000USD/mo of commuting costs. It makes “commute until you qualify” longer than it might otherwise be. And it doesn’t help that there has long been a tendency to overcentralize in Tokyo, which is very large and can take a while to commute around.
rirarobo 6y ago
I also find this strange. Not only are prefab homes done everywhere else in the world, but prefab homes and single family homes in general are not that common in Japan. If you were going to take any lessons from Japan regarding housing, wouldn't it be more along the lines of how to build high density housing cost effectively in coordination with world class public transportation infrastructure?
- imwillofficial 6y ago
  From a US perspective, this article was quite eye opening. I was actually walking around a prefab home lot this afternoon. They firmly occupy the poorest rung of the housing market. In Japan the cultural and build quality issues seem to have been surmounted. Very interesting.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    Not always. It’s the only way to build a nice “normal” house.
  - sjg007 6y ago
    I'd buy one here. It'll take a big name developer to do it well first.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  Adding, I’d be a lot more impressed with the idea we should “learn lessons” from Japanese Prefab if they had even a remotely volatile climate like most of the USA does. What is the average temp swing per year in Japan? Like a 40 degree (F) swing over the year? Lol, ok, show me those amazing looking modern prefabs for places there you get 60 degree (F) swing in day and let’s see how they’re doing. Or that cool aluminum place with 2ft of snow on it. Etc. Not that we can’t learn lessons, but I think structures just need a lot less engineering in Asia compared to other places.
  - Izikiel43 6y ago
    Well, it depends where in Japan you go to, like the US. Hokkaido in the north gets lots of snow, the south like Osaka and beyond gets hot in the summer.
imwillofficial 6y ago
I don’t know what your attitude is about, but while prefab homes are done the world over, in the west they are often the poorest parts of society forced to live there due to no other options. Culturally, this seems to be quite different.
- psychstudio 6y ago
  This isn't really true unless you are equating the US with "the west". There are many German and Dutch companies that make high-end pre-fabricated houses and walls that sell not only locally, but abroad. Many factors contribute to the purchasing decisions of quality pre-fabricated housing materials, of which price is only one (and probably isn't even a factor at the high-end).
  - sjg007 6y ago
    A big thing in the US is the housing construction and related service industry. That's a lot of voters.
    - zdragnar 6y ago
      I would imagine that insurance companies have much more influence over government regulation of building codes than construction crews do. After all, insurance companies are the ones that have to pay out if the house doesn't hold up.
      - sjg007 6y ago
        It's State governments that cover residential construction issues. All of them have laws and limitations and in fact have an pooled insurance fund (paid for by contractor license fees etc...)
  - imwillofficial 6y ago
    Them being made doesn’t mean them being used. Can you share your personal experience with prefab homes and social strata in other countries?
brigandish 6y ago
> it is an excuse to not focus on the real problem > the housing market and the insane amount of speculation around it Couldn't agree more. > i don't understand this pseudo fascination for japan Because people who've not lived there usually have entirely the wrong idea about it, and articles like this one with its buzzwords (the first paragraph is almost parody) and lack of context (number one would be the low quality of housing in Japan, it'd be literally criminal if anyone with the power to look into it would), add in a mix of (seemingly) impenetrable language, stereotypes from the 1980s about futuristic technology, and endless animes about robots deepening that, and you end up at "wow, Japan!" Meanwhile, I freeze my arse off every winter and curse the build quality daily.

Clewza313 6y ago

There's actually lots of interesting things about the Japanese housing market: it's not a speculative investment (most houses lose value), much of the housing is designed to be disposable (lifespan 20-30 years), rents are quite affordable even in the biggest cities but commutes are long and size tends to be tiny by Western standards. But I agree that prefabs aren't particularly interesting.

jdshaffer 6y ago
Pretty much here in Japan the houses ARE considered disposable -- at least if you go to buy a house or build a house you quickly realize that the big chunk of money is for the land and even though building your house will be expensive, it'll be worth nearly nothing when/if you go to sell it. (That's why I've hesitated to buy a house here...)
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  Sounds like you can get a "second hand" house very cheaply. Or is the catch that they're so cheaply built that you don't want to live in them?
  - brigandish 6y ago
    > Or is the catch that they're so cheaply built that you don't want to live in them? Yes, or at least they'll need a big refurb.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    Keep in mind that one factor the rest of the world probably doesn’t have is earthquake codes. Japan has very stringent building regulations and they usually get updated after major events. The most recent revisions were in 1981 and 2000; a house is going to have poor resale value if it will kill you in the event of an earthquake.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      Well, yet they still build with wood...
      - Tor3 6y ago
        But these days there's a steel frame keeping the top storey from falling down into the lower storey, as will typically happen in an earthquake with older style homes.
      - bluGill 6y ago
        Wood works well in earthquakes - when you design for it. Wood is flexible so shaking it won't damage anything structural and so repair is cosmetic. (the above is strongly an over simplification!) That is why Japan builds with wood a lot instead of brick/rock: after the earthquake you have a safe place to live while you repair it. Repairs might be so expensive that you rebuild, but at least you can a safe roof while building the new place. Not to mention if you were inside you don't die of building collapse.
        baybal2 6y ago
        > Wood works well in earthquakes - when you design for it. I highly doubt that "designing for it" really beats inherently stronger building materials to specifically choose wood with its many, many other disadvantages over something else.
        bluGill 6y ago
        Actually it does. Wood is flexible in ways the most of your stronger materials are not. Iron works, but it is more expensive and doesn't really have any advantage until you are going tall (tall being about 6 floors, but consult an engineer for details) There is a reason Japan traditionally used wood, it works well in general. The design for it parts of wood are not hard - I don't know Japanese history, but I'd guess they figured it out well B.C.
bobthepanda 6y ago
The long commute can be explained, IMO, in part by the transportation allowance, where employers are allowed to subsidize up to 1000USD/mo of commuting costs. It makes “commute until you qualify” longer than it might otherwise be. And it doesn’t help that there has long been a tendency to overcentralize in Tokyo, which is very large and can take a while to commute around.

rirarobo 6y ago

I also find this strange. Not only are prefab homes done everywhere else in the world, but prefab homes and single family homes in general are not that common in Japan. If you were going to take any lessons from Japan regarding housing, wouldn't it be more along the lines of how to build high density housing cost effectively in coordination with world class public transportation infrastructure?

imwillofficial 6y ago
From a US perspective, this article was quite eye opening. I was actually walking around a prefab home lot this afternoon. They firmly occupy the poorest rung of the housing market. In Japan the cultural and build quality issues seem to have been surmounted. Very interesting.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  Not always. It’s the only way to build a nice “normal” house.
- sjg007 6y ago
  I'd buy one here. It'll take a big name developer to do it well first.
SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
Adding, I’d be a lot more impressed with the idea we should “learn lessons” from Japanese Prefab if they had even a remotely volatile climate like most of the USA does. What is the average temp swing per year in Japan? Like a 40 degree (F) swing over the year? Lol, ok, show me those amazing looking modern prefabs for places there you get 60 degree (F) swing in day and let’s see how they’re doing. Or that cool aluminum place with 2ft of snow on it. Etc. Not that we can’t learn lessons, but I think structures just need a lot less engineering in Asia compared to other places.
- Izikiel43 6y ago
  Well, it depends where in Japan you go to, like the US. Hokkaido in the north gets lots of snow, the south like Osaka and beyond gets hot in the summer.

imwillofficial 6y ago

I don’t know what your attitude is about, but while prefab homes are done the world over, in the west they are often the poorest parts of society forced to live there due to no other options. Culturally, this seems to be quite different.

psychstudio 6y ago
This isn't really true unless you are equating the US with "the west". There are many German and Dutch companies that make high-end pre-fabricated houses and walls that sell not only locally, but abroad. Many factors contribute to the purchasing decisions of quality pre-fabricated housing materials, of which price is only one (and probably isn't even a factor at the high-end).
- sjg007 6y ago
  A big thing in the US is the housing construction and related service industry. That's a lot of voters.
  - zdragnar 6y ago
    I would imagine that insurance companies have much more influence over government regulation of building codes than construction crews do. After all, insurance companies are the ones that have to pay out if the house doesn't hold up.
    - sjg007 6y ago
      It's State governments that cover residential construction issues. All of them have laws and limitations and in fact have an pooled insurance fund (paid for by contractor license fees etc...)
- imwillofficial 6y ago
  Them being made doesn’t mean them being used. Can you share your personal experience with prefab homes and social strata in other countries?

brigandish 6y ago

> it is an excuse to not focus on the real problem > the housing market and the insane amount of speculation around it Couldn't agree more. > i don't understand this pseudo fascination for japan Because people who've not lived there usually have entirely the wrong idea about it, and articles like this one with its buzzwords (the first paragraph is almost parody) and lack of context (number one would be the low quality of housing in Japan, it'd be literally criminal if anyone with the power to look into it would), add in a mix of (seemingly) impenetrable language, stereotypes from the 1980s about futuristic technology, and endless animes about robots deepening that, and you end up at "wow, Japan!" Meanwhile, I freeze my arse off every winter and curse the build quality daily.