6 ms·

Oh hell no. The late day light is WAY better than early day light. I am not going to mow my lawn at 5 a.m. and piss off all my neighbors (plus the grass tends t

Oh hell no. The late day light is WAY better than early day light. I am not going to mow my lawn at 5 a.m. and piss off all my neighbors (plus the grass tends to have dew and be wet early). Mowing my lawn at 7 pm (if it is still light out), is not a problem.

TimTheTinker 6y ago
Daylight time proponents are effectively advocating that the standard work day start an hour earlier relative to the sunlight. I tend to disagree - better to let people sleep. There's a reason "standard" time was set up that way in the first place. I suspect it works better with our circadian rhythm that way.
- thelean12 6y ago
  > I tend to disagree - better to let people sleep. I'm not advocating to move around the standard work day, but grown adults could just go to sleep an hour earlier. "let people sleep" makes no sense. It wouldn't take away an hour of their sleep.
  - TimTheTinker 6y ago
    This isn’t about “grown adults” and their capabilities. It’s about the well-being of society as a whole. There’s a lot more to consider than “when should working people show up for work”? Note that a significant portion of society doesn’t have a day job — kids, retired/elderly, caregivers & home-parents, disabled and unable to work, etc. In fact, the needs of these groups ought to be prioritized, since as you said, working adults can adapt.
- watwut 6y ago
  Adults are sleep deprived not because of sun, but because of evening activities - games, reading internet, movies. They value a bit more entertainment or a bit more work more then sleep. Half a year there is dark long before adults go to sleep and also dark in the morning. Sun is not preventing sleep, but people dont sleep.
  - TimTheTinker 6y ago
    You seem to be conflating two problems. The fact that many people stay up too late entertaining themselves doesn’t change how people as a whole respond physiologically to the presence and absence of sunlight, or how that ought to factor in to policy decisions.
    - watwut 6y ago
      The majority of year there is dark long before adults go to sleep. Adults go to sleep at same times as during summer, the dark is not making them going to sleep more. For all practical purposes, sun is completely irrelevant to adults sleeping.
throw0101a 6y ago
I seem to post this for every DST story, so I might as well continue the tradition: The folks who study this: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology Seem to have come to a consensus that if we're going to get rid of DST, then health-wise it is best to have Standard Time year-round: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Time (ST). The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... For a longer-read, referencing quite a bit of academic literature, but a conclusionary snippet: > In summary, the scientific literature strongly argues against the switching between DST and Standard Time and even more so against adopting DST permanently. The latter would exaggerate all the effects described above /beyond/ the simple extension of DST from approximately 8 months/year to 12 months/year (depending on country) since /body clocks/ are generally even later during winter than during the long photoperiods of summer (with DST) (Kantermann et al., 2007; Hadlow et al., 2014, 2018; Hashizaki et al., 2018). Perennial DST increases SJL prevalence even more, as described above. * https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.00944/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.0094... Other position papers that I've dug up over the years when curiosity got the better of me: > Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) is dedicated to advancing rigorous, peer-reviewed science and evidence-based policies related to sleep and circadian biology. * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * (refs, with pro and con): https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-SRBRPressKit.pdf https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-S... European Sleep Research Society: * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... American Academy of Sleep Medicine (with 36 footnotes if you want to dig further): * https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 * https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 The Centre for Chronobiology, based at the Psychiatric University Hospital (University of Basel): * http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D... * http://www.chronobiology.ch/ http://www.chronobiology.ch/

TimTheTinker 6y ago

Daylight time proponents are effectively advocating that the standard work day start an hour earlier relative to the sunlight. I tend to disagree - better to let people sleep. There's a reason "standard" time was set up that way in the first place. I suspect it works better with our circadian rhythm that way.

thelean12 6y ago
> I tend to disagree - better to let people sleep. I'm not advocating to move around the standard work day, but grown adults could just go to sleep an hour earlier. "let people sleep" makes no sense. It wouldn't take away an hour of their sleep.
- TimTheTinker 6y ago
  This isn’t about “grown adults” and their capabilities. It’s about the well-being of society as a whole. There’s a lot more to consider than “when should working people show up for work”? Note that a significant portion of society doesn’t have a day job — kids, retired/elderly, caregivers & home-parents, disabled and unable to work, etc. In fact, the needs of these groups ought to be prioritized, since as you said, working adults can adapt.
watwut 6y ago
Adults are sleep deprived not because of sun, but because of evening activities - games, reading internet, movies. They value a bit more entertainment or a bit more work more then sleep. Half a year there is dark long before adults go to sleep and also dark in the morning. Sun is not preventing sleep, but people dont sleep.
- TimTheTinker 6y ago
  You seem to be conflating two problems. The fact that many people stay up too late entertaining themselves doesn’t change how people as a whole respond physiologically to the presence and absence of sunlight, or how that ought to factor in to policy decisions.
  - watwut 6y ago
    The majority of year there is dark long before adults go to sleep. Adults go to sleep at same times as during summer, the dark is not making them going to sleep more. For all practical purposes, sun is completely irrelevant to adults sleeping.

throw0101a 6y ago

I seem to post this for every DST story, so I might as well continue the tradition: The folks who study this: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology Seem to have come to a consensus that if we're going to get rid of DST, then health-wise it is best to have Standard Time year-round: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Time (ST). The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... For a longer-read, referencing quite a bit of academic literature, but a conclusionary snippet: > In summary, the scientific literature strongly argues against the switching between DST and Standard Time and even more so against adopting DST permanently. The latter would exaggerate all the effects described above /beyond/ the simple extension of DST from approximately 8 months/year to 12 months/year (depending on country) since /body clocks/ are generally even later during winter than during the long photoperiods of summer (with DST) (Kantermann et al., 2007; Hadlow et al., 2014, 2018; Hashizaki et al., 2018). Perennial DST increases SJL prevalence even more, as described above. * https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.00944/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.0094... Other position papers that I've dug up over the years when curiosity got the better of me: > Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) is dedicated to advancing rigorous, peer-reviewed science and evidence-based policies related to sleep and circadian biology. * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * (refs, with pro and con): https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-SRBRPressKit.pdf https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-S... European Sleep Research Society: * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... American Academy of Sleep Medicine (with 36 footnotes if you want to dig further): * https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 * https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 The Centre for Chronobiology, based at the Psychiatric University Hospital (University of Basel): * http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D... * http://www.chronobiology.ch/ http://www.chronobiology.ch/