7 ms·

I find the idea crazy. I get DST, I understand its benefits. But I think it only makes sense because it's not the norm. Because it's not the norm, we get used

by SamBam 6y ago

I find the idea crazy. I get DST, I understand its benefits. But I think it only makes sense because it's not the norm. Because it's not the norm, we get used to the time for half the year, stick with our long-established timetables, and then want more evening sunlight in the summer. Making it permanent means we are saying that even 100 years from now, children will ask "why isn't the sun at the top of the sky at noon?" and we'll say "a hundred years ago people thought it was easier to permanently change the clocks because businesses would never, ever let people go home at 4:00." I think that, if the pandemic and a year from remote work and school has taught us anything, it's that getting people to stop work or school an hour earlier is actually within our grasp. (Speaking of which, it's 4:00. I'm going to get off the computer now.)

treespace88 6y ago
While I agree moving to permanent DST is kinda nuts. It’s less nuts then flipping clocks twice a year. Once we have stopped flipping we can then move back to Standard time at a future date. Fighting insanity one battle at a time.
weaksauce 6y ago
Where I am there is a two fold component to it... you have shorter usable days in the winter AND you also have earlier darkness for people because they shift it one hour earlier. that means that you go to work when it's dark out and come home when it's dark out. having an "extra" hour after work to relax would be a win. permanent DST is a win in my book.
brainfish 6y ago
What tangible benefit does society gain from the sun being straight up at noon? Furthermore, how is this a valid argument when timezones are +/- an hour wide, meaning that even if local noon == noon in one part of the timezone, that is not true in other parts of the same timezone? This is the worst reasoning to base this decision on.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  It helps with circadian rhythms. I seem to post this for every DST story, so I might as well continue the tradition: The folks who study this: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology Seem to have come to a consensus that if we're going to get rid of DST, then health-wise it is best to have Standard Time year-round: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Time (ST). The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... For a longer-read, referencing quite a bit of academic literature, but a conclusionary snippet: > In summary, the scientific literature strongly argues against the switching between DST and Standard Time and even more so against adopting DST permanently. The latter would exaggerate all the effects described above /beyond/ the simple extension of DST from approximately 8 months/year to 12 months/year (depending on country) since /body clocks/ are generally even later during winter than during the long photoperiods of summer (with DST) (Kantermann et al., 2007; Hadlow et al., 2014, 2018; Hashizaki et al., 2018). Perennial DST increases SJL prevalence even more, as described above. * https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.00944/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.0094... Other position papers that I've dug up over the years when curiosity got the better of me: > Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) is dedicated to advancing rigorous, peer-reviewed science and evidence-based policies related to sleep and circadian biology. * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * (refs, with pro and con): https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-SRBRPressKit.pdf https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-S... European Sleep Research Society: * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... American Academy of Sleep Medicine (with 36 footnotes if you want to dig further): * https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 * https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 The Centre for Chronobiology, based at the Psychiatric University Hospital (University of Basel): * http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D... * http://www.chronobiology.ch/ http://www.chronobiology.ch/
nomercy400 6y ago
Does it matter if it is on top of the sky at 11h, 12h or 13h? Noon or mid-day is still when the sun is at its highest point. Only noon does not have to be at 12.
- heleninboodler 6y ago
  No, it doesn't matter. Where I live, the time the sun is at its highest varies from 11:53 to 13:18 and at no time in the history of my city (I checked all the records) has a child ever asked why the sun isn't directly overhead precisely at noon.
  - cgriswald 6y ago
    Well, you must not live where I grew up, because I asked this very question... ...which lead to me grokking time zones, time, solar noon, etc in a way I don’t think I would have if I hadn’t asked. Somehow solar noon not being noon didn’t have a negative impact on me as a kid. Weird, right?
    - heleninboodler 6y ago
      My answer was (hopefully obviously) tongue-in-cheek with regards to this never actually happening, but more importantly, it was a response to the idea that children would find it strange that the sun isn't directly overhead at noon. I don't know how a child could find that strange if it so rarely even happens that it is directly overhead at noon.
- SamBam 6y ago
  What? Is there any place in the world that distinguishes "noon" and 12:00pm in everyday speech? You're asking for a lot more trouble if you want to separate them. How about "afternoon" -- can that start at 11:00 am? (Yes, scientists can use the term "solar noon," but I'm talking about everyday speech.)
Jedd 6y ago
I wonder what your preferred answer would be to these hypothetical children that noticed the sun's location at noon is not 'at the top of the sky' for half the year already. And where do you live such that the sun is at the 'top of the sky' at noon? Timezones aside (which basically average out an arbitrary time for the 1/24th of the planet you are standing in) there's the 23.5 degree axis, which means there's nowhere on the planet where the sun is at the 'top of the sky' all year.
- puzzledobserver 6y ago
  'Top of the sky' is often the colloquial phrase for 'on the meridian line'. Which is valuable to know in itself. Now, of course, there are differences between the mean solar day and the actual day, and the analemma, and all that, but to a first approximation, the sun is really closest to the top of the sky at noon, local time.
  - Jedd 6y ago
    > 'Top of the sky' is often the colloquial phrase for 'on the meridian line'. Which is valuable to know in itself. I've never heard the phrase before, and it seems to be such a wildly unpopular term that running an incognito google search on the phrase gives me three pages that contain almost exclusively references to tall buildings (Sydney, Auckland, Dubai) and some songs with a similar name. There's one reference in that set of 30 results that refers to the astronomical term 'zenith' -- which is what I'd have naively interpreted the phrase to mean (and informs my earlier questions to GP). In any case, as per GP's plaintive concerns over children's potential confusion in 2121, we seem to be ignoring the facts that today schools start, and shops open, at 9am, and schools & offices are open Monday to Friday, etc etc because of what some people wanted a hundred years ago -- and I'd agree that not enough people ask the obvious questions about why we're still sticking to this craziness.
    - SamBam 6y ago
      "The sun is at its highest point" would be the common way to say it. I seriously didn't think anyone would have trouble with "top," but there you go.
ravenstine 6y ago
The pandemic, in my opinion, has revealed that a lot of the things we used to say "can't be done" could actually be done. Vaccines in a year? Check. More white collar jobs working from home? Check. Closing down a huge portion of businesses without economic armageddon? Check. I think we can handle getting rid of DST. (or just making it permanent)
- SamBam 6y ago
  But you're saying we couldn't handle communities starting to transition to school and work an hour earlier, without changing the clock?
globular-toast 6y ago
> want more evening sunlight in the summer. This is so backwards... There's loads of evening light in the summer. I want more evening light in the winter.
- SamBam 6y ago
  We'd all like more light in the evening if it came for free, but an hour more light on the evening in the winter means an hour less light in the morning. Depending on where you live, that could mean the sun rising an hour after you get into work or school. Waking, eating breakfast, and commuting before the sun rises sucks. Making it worse would, well, make it worse. In the summer we don't have that problem, as even with the time change the sun usually rises before most people do.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    People live in places where the sun disappears for most of the day for months. Humans can adjust to just about any schedule. The biggest advantage is our bodies won't have to adjust twice a year for an arbitrary time change. I'm fine with either one being the standard, just stop changing it. I fully support this bill.

by SamBam 6y ago

treespace88 6y ago

While I agree moving to permanent DST is kinda nuts. It’s less nuts then flipping clocks twice a year. Once we have stopped flipping we can then move back to Standard time at a future date. Fighting insanity one battle at a time.

weaksauce 6y ago

Where I am there is a two fold component to it... you have shorter usable days in the winter AND you also have earlier darkness for people because they shift it one hour earlier. that means that you go to work when it's dark out and come home when it's dark out. having an "extra" hour after work to relax would be a win. permanent DST is a win in my book.

brainfish 6y ago

What tangible benefit does society gain from the sun being straight up at noon? Furthermore, how is this a valid argument when timezones are +/- an hour wide, meaning that even if local noon == noon in one part of the timezone, that is not true in other parts of the same timezone? This is the worst reasoning to base this decision on.

throw0101a 6y ago
It helps with circadian rhythms. I seem to post this for every DST story, so I might as well continue the tradition: The folks who study this: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology Seem to have come to a consensus that if we're going to get rid of DST, then health-wise it is best to have Standard Time year-round: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Time (ST). The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... For a longer-read, referencing quite a bit of academic literature, but a conclusionary snippet: > In summary, the scientific literature strongly argues against the switching between DST and Standard Time and even more so against adopting DST permanently. The latter would exaggerate all the effects described above /beyond/ the simple extension of DST from approximately 8 months/year to 12 months/year (depending on country) since /body clocks/ are generally even later during winter than during the long photoperiods of summer (with DST) (Kantermann et al., 2007; Hadlow et al., 2014, 2018; Hashizaki et al., 2018). Perennial DST increases SJL prevalence even more, as described above. * https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.00944/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.0094... Other position papers that I've dug up over the years when curiosity got the better of me: > Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) is dedicated to advancing rigorous, peer-reviewed science and evidence-based policies related to sleep and circadian biology. * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * (refs, with pro and con): https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-SRBRPressKit.pdf https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-S... European Sleep Research Society: * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... American Academy of Sleep Medicine (with 36 footnotes if you want to dig further): * https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 * https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 The Centre for Chronobiology, based at the Psychiatric University Hospital (University of Basel): * http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D... * http://www.chronobiology.ch/ http://www.chronobiology.ch/

nomercy400 6y ago

Does it matter if it is on top of the sky at 11h, 12h or 13h? Noon or mid-day is still when the sun is at its highest point. Only noon does not have to be at 12.

heleninboodler 6y ago
No, it doesn't matter. Where I live, the time the sun is at its highest varies from 11:53 to 13:18 and at no time in the history of my city (I checked all the records) has a child ever asked why the sun isn't directly overhead precisely at noon.
- cgriswald 6y ago
  Well, you must not live where I grew up, because I asked this very question... ...which lead to me grokking time zones, time, solar noon, etc in a way I don’t think I would have if I hadn’t asked. Somehow solar noon not being noon didn’t have a negative impact on me as a kid. Weird, right?
  - heleninboodler 6y ago
    My answer was (hopefully obviously) tongue-in-cheek with regards to this never actually happening, but more importantly, it was a response to the idea that children would find it strange that the sun isn't directly overhead at noon. I don't know how a child could find that strange if it so rarely even happens that it is directly overhead at noon.
SamBam 6y ago
What? Is there any place in the world that distinguishes "noon" and 12:00pm in everyday speech? You're asking for a lot more trouble if you want to separate them. How about "afternoon" -- can that start at 11:00 am? (Yes, scientists can use the term "solar noon," but I'm talking about everyday speech.)

Jedd 6y ago

I wonder what your preferred answer would be to these hypothetical children that noticed the sun's location at noon is not 'at the top of the sky' for half the year already. And where do you live such that the sun is at the 'top of the sky' at noon? Timezones aside (which basically average out an arbitrary time for the 1/24th of the planet you are standing in) there's the 23.5 degree axis, which means there's nowhere on the planet where the sun is at the 'top of the sky' all year.

puzzledobserver 6y ago
'Top of the sky' is often the colloquial phrase for 'on the meridian line'. Which is valuable to know in itself. Now, of course, there are differences between the mean solar day and the actual day, and the analemma, and all that, but to a first approximation, the sun is really closest to the top of the sky at noon, local time.
- Jedd 6y ago
  > 'Top of the sky' is often the colloquial phrase for 'on the meridian line'. Which is valuable to know in itself. I've never heard the phrase before, and it seems to be such a wildly unpopular term that running an incognito google search on the phrase gives me three pages that contain almost exclusively references to tall buildings (Sydney, Auckland, Dubai) and some songs with a similar name. There's one reference in that set of 30 results that refers to the astronomical term 'zenith' -- which is what I'd have naively interpreted the phrase to mean (and informs my earlier questions to GP). In any case, as per GP's plaintive concerns over children's potential confusion in 2121, we seem to be ignoring the facts that today schools start, and shops open, at 9am, and schools & offices are open Monday to Friday, etc etc because of what some people wanted a hundred years ago -- and I'd agree that not enough people ask the obvious questions about why we're still sticking to this craziness.
  - SamBam 6y ago
    "The sun is at its highest point" would be the common way to say it. I seriously didn't think anyone would have trouble with "top," but there you go.

ravenstine 6y ago

The pandemic, in my opinion, has revealed that a lot of the things we used to say "can't be done" could actually be done. Vaccines in a year? Check. More white collar jobs working from home? Check. Closing down a huge portion of businesses without economic armageddon? Check. I think we can handle getting rid of DST. (or just making it permanent)

SamBam 6y ago
But you're saying we couldn't handle communities starting to transition to school and work an hour earlier, without changing the clock?

globular-toast 6y ago

> want more evening sunlight in the summer. This is so backwards... There's loads of evening light in the summer. I want more evening light in the winter.

SamBam 6y ago
We'd all like more light in the evening if it came for free, but an hour more light on the evening in the winter means an hour less light in the morning. Depending on where you live, that could mean the sun rising an hour after you get into work or school. Waking, eating breakfast, and commuting before the sun rises sucks. Making it worse would, well, make it worse. In the summer we don't have that problem, as even with the time change the sun usually rises before most people do.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  People live in places where the sun disappears for most of the day for months. Humans can adjust to just about any schedule. The biggest advantage is our bodies won't have to adjust twice a year for an arbitrary time change. I'm fine with either one being the standard, just stop changing it. I fully support this bill.