4 ms·

An interesting output of this is, if you keep scrollbars visible, you'll find that a lot of websites end up with weird extra scrollbars on random elements. Wha

An interesting output of this is, if you keep scrollbars visible, you'll find that a lot of websites end up with weird extra scrollbars on random elements. What often causes this is some HTML element overflowing by one pixel, but no one saw it during the QA process because all the webdevs were using Macs, which have invisible scrollbars by default. I always enable visible scrollbars on my dev computers specifically so I can catch problems like this.

erwinh 6y ago
mac user & web dev here, I often employ a trick where I wrap my scrolling div in another div which has overflow hidden just to hide the scrollbar. QA & usability engineers must hate me :p
- CharlesW 6y ago
  > QA & usability engineers must hate me :p "Hate" is a strong work, but humble users like myself also dislike you (or rather, your choices).
- distalx 6y ago
  How? can you please share some example?
- ShroudedNight 6y ago
  This comes across as smugly prideful at being explicitly user-hostile. What's the upside here?
- deft 6y ago
  Why? Stop making bad software and laughing about how it screws people over.
trinovantes 6y ago
I've seen so many broken web components do this: 1. Hover over an element that enables the visibility of something else 2. Trigger an overflow and cause scrollbar to show up 3. Scrollbar shifts the original element 4. Original element is no longer being hovered so new element gets hidden 5. Scrollbar disappears and original element moves back 6. Repeat
- squaresmile 6y ago
  Hah if your Github repo name is at the right length, you'll get that bug with the fork pop-up window. [0] https://i.imgur.com/dS5acnx.gifv https://i.imgur.com/dS5acnx.gifv The gif doesn't have enough fps. IRL the animation is about 10x faster than that so there's no time to click the username. Reported it but the support agent couldn't reproduce ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
scabbycakes 6y ago
I call it Made-By-A-Macitis because it's so common in this industry since MBP's are issued by default almost in web dev companies, which inevitably leads to weird scrollbars here and there on their startup websites until someone else finally reports it or a dev finally breaks down and tests it on any other non-Apple device.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  Remember all the "Made for / Works Best in Internet Explorer" buttons from the early 90s/early 00s? We've gone through a long period of "Works on my Safari".
- markogresak 6y ago
  > dev finally breaks down and tests it on any other non-Apple device Why the need for an extra device? There's a setting in the System Preferences > General > Show scroll bars: "Always". Or it will automatically show scroll bars if you're using a mouse. If you're a web developer and your target audience is not limited to only macOS and mobile, you should have the Show scroll bars set to Always. I'm using a mbp for most of my web dev career and I've always caught these bugs during development. What I do agree is that Windows or Linux makes this setting a default, which makes it more obvious. While testing on different devices is always better, it's not necessary to catch these trivial problems.
preommr 6y ago
> * { overflow: hidden } defeated dev noises
- brockwhittaker 6y ago
  but actually this is the worst possible solution to this and causes tons of issues.
jacurtis 6y ago
I honestly think that this is the main reason that Apple hides scrollbars by default. I have turned on "always visible" scrollbars before and it really does ruin the internet experience. Now I'm not sure if you blame the OS maker (Apple/Microsoft), the browser makers (Apple again, Google, Microsoft, Mozilla), or the web developers of the websites. But regardless of who accepts or deserves the blame, it is hard to dispute that the experience is far worse with scrollbars forced always on. It shouldn't be this way, but as of right now, it ruins the experience. Like you mentioned, some websites simply don't work or don't work how they should. You end up with scrollbars on elements that aren't even form fields because of weird hacks that web developers are doing with overflow elements or strange CSS anomalies. I'm not sure how you address this issue. But it is definitely more deeply seeded than the OS level, and I think web developers (a lot of us here) should take some of the responsibility for ruining scrollbars. It is our company's apps and sites that drove Apple to this decision. I suspect that one of the reasons for hidden scrollbars by default is because the teams at Apple have tried to use the web with "always-on" scrollbars and didn't want their users experiencing the web that way. Remember also that defaults are important. Most people will never change the setting, even if it was obnoxious. Most Mac users are going to use the default setting, regardless of whether the default is always on, always off, or auto. Whatever the default is, that will be how most people use the computer and just accept it as "how it works". So Apple has to choose the best option (between three bad choices) that will best best for MOST people. Not everyone, but MOST. I also think that MOST people are used to automatic scroll bars at this point. Again, my Mom is the person that will never change a setting. So she will always use whatever the default is. And she is used to automatic scrollbars. She knows that if she wants to see the scrollbars, she has to do a micro-flick of the scrollwheel (or her finger on mobile/touch) to reveal the scrollbar. It requires minimal-to-no effort and most people have grown accustomed to it now. Is it flawless? No. But I do think it is the best option MOST of the time.
- jakub_g 6y ago
  > I have turned on "always visible" scrollbars before and it really does ruin the internet experience. You have scrollbars everywhere precisely because they're hidden from developers who don't even know about them, and it seems ~all developers use Macs for web dev those days.
apocalyptic0n3 6y ago
> no one saw it during the QA process because all the webdevs were using Macs, which have invisible scrollbars by default. We've had this happen numerous times in the past. As a result, I had to make it mandatory that devs on my team and the QA team have scrollbars always on on their Macs. They get frustrated that I require it but it catches so many minor layout issues that it's worth it.

erwinh 6y ago

mac user & web dev here, I often employ a trick where I wrap my scrolling div in another div which has overflow hidden just to hide the scrollbar. QA & usability engineers must hate me :p

CharlesW 6y ago
> QA & usability engineers must hate me :p "Hate" is a strong work, but humble users like myself also dislike you (or rather, your choices).
distalx 6y ago
How? can you please share some example?
ShroudedNight 6y ago
This comes across as smugly prideful at being explicitly user-hostile. What's the upside here?
deft 6y ago
Why? Stop making bad software and laughing about how it screws people over.

trinovantes 6y ago

I've seen so many broken web components do this: 1. Hover over an element that enables the visibility of something else 2. Trigger an overflow and cause scrollbar to show up 3. Scrollbar shifts the original element 4. Original element is no longer being hovered so new element gets hidden 5. Scrollbar disappears and original element moves back 6. Repeat

squaresmile 6y ago
Hah if your Github repo name is at the right length, you'll get that bug with the fork pop-up window. [0] https://i.imgur.com/dS5acnx.gifv https://i.imgur.com/dS5acnx.gifv The gif doesn't have enough fps. IRL the animation is about 10x faster than that so there's no time to click the username. Reported it but the support agent couldn't reproduce ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

scabbycakes 6y ago

I call it Made-By-A-Macitis because it's so common in this industry since MBP's are issued by default almost in web dev companies, which inevitably leads to weird scrollbars here and there on their startup websites until someone else finally reports it or a dev finally breaks down and tests it on any other non-Apple device.

FireBeyond 6y ago
Remember all the "Made for / Works Best in Internet Explorer" buttons from the early 90s/early 00s? We've gone through a long period of "Works on my Safari".
markogresak 6y ago
> dev finally breaks down and tests it on any other non-Apple device Why the need for an extra device? There's a setting in the System Preferences > General > Show scroll bars: "Always". Or it will automatically show scroll bars if you're using a mouse. If you're a web developer and your target audience is not limited to only macOS and mobile, you should have the Show scroll bars set to Always. I'm using a mbp for most of my web dev career and I've always caught these bugs during development. What I do agree is that Windows or Linux makes this setting a default, which makes it more obvious. While testing on different devices is always better, it's not necessary to catch these trivial problems.

preommr 6y ago

> * { overflow: hidden } defeated dev noises

brockwhittaker 6y ago
but actually this is the worst possible solution to this and causes tons of issues.

jacurtis 6y ago

I honestly think that this is the main reason that Apple hides scrollbars by default. I have turned on "always visible" scrollbars before and it really does ruin the internet experience. Now I'm not sure if you blame the OS maker (Apple/Microsoft), the browser makers (Apple again, Google, Microsoft, Mozilla), or the web developers of the websites. But regardless of who accepts or deserves the blame, it is hard to dispute that the experience is far worse with scrollbars forced always on. It shouldn't be this way, but as of right now, it ruins the experience. Like you mentioned, some websites simply don't work or don't work how they should. You end up with scrollbars on elements that aren't even form fields because of weird hacks that web developers are doing with overflow elements or strange CSS anomalies. I'm not sure how you address this issue. But it is definitely more deeply seeded than the OS level, and I think web developers (a lot of us here) should take some of the responsibility for ruining scrollbars. It is our company's apps and sites that drove Apple to this decision. I suspect that one of the reasons for hidden scrollbars by default is because the teams at Apple have tried to use the web with "always-on" scrollbars and didn't want their users experiencing the web that way. Remember also that defaults are important. Most people will never change the setting, even if it was obnoxious. Most Mac users are going to use the default setting, regardless of whether the default is always on, always off, or auto. Whatever the default is, that will be how most people use the computer and just accept it as "how it works". So Apple has to choose the best option (between three bad choices) that will best best for MOST people. Not everyone, but MOST. I also think that MOST people are used to automatic scroll bars at this point. Again, my Mom is the person that will never change a setting. So she will always use whatever the default is. And she is used to automatic scrollbars. She knows that if she wants to see the scrollbars, she has to do a micro-flick of the scrollwheel (or her finger on mobile/touch) to reveal the scrollbar. It requires minimal-to-no effort and most people have grown accustomed to it now. Is it flawless? No. But I do think it is the best option MOST of the time.

jakub_g 6y ago
> I have turned on "always visible" scrollbars before and it really does ruin the internet experience. You have scrollbars everywhere precisely because they're hidden from developers who don't even know about them, and it seems ~all developers use Macs for web dev those days.

apocalyptic0n3 6y ago

> no one saw it during the QA process because all the webdevs were using Macs, which have invisible scrollbars by default. We've had this happen numerous times in the past. As a result, I had to make it mandatory that devs on my team and the QA team have scrollbars always on on their Macs. They get frustrated that I require it but it catches so many minor layout issues that it's worth it.