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Great interview. Just waiting on the HN hate of crypto to pile in here. Let's applaud the Etherium efforts to reduce energy consumption. Crypto is not perfect b

Great interview. Just waiting on the HN hate of crypto to pile in here. Let's applaud the Etherium efforts to reduce energy consumption. Crypto is not perfect but projects like Etherium are making crypto better in terms of energy usage, tx/second, and smart contracts.

Ceezy 6y ago
Hate? So when you do POS what happened to the supposed bullet proof security of of crypto coins? Cause I m not to sure how that's compatible. Also I would like to see the chart of adoption of these cryptos in unbanked countries/populations.
- fasteddie31003 6y ago
  POS = "Proof of stake" here, not the more common use of POS. PoS if implemented with the correct incentives is as secure as PoW. I don't have much faith in crypto helping unbanked populations, as there is a pretty high learning curve. You can easily wipe away all your money if you do a step wrong or loose a private key.
  - _jjkk 6y ago
    It is yet to be proven if it is "as secure" because no PoS network has operated at scale. It also certainly defeats much of the original purpose of decentralization when a few stakeholders have total control of the network because they hold the most coins... Regardless if the network has "correct incentives" or not, things can happen to those stakeholders outside their control, or other incentives could easily develop to act in bad faith against the network.
    - Shoue 6y ago
      > It also certainly defeats much of the original purpose of decentralization when a few stakeholders have total control of the network because they hold the most coins... As opposed to a few stakeholders that have total control of the network because they hold the most computational power? And before you bring up mining pools, you can replicate that in Proof of Stake by creating staking pools.
    - DennisP 6y ago
      I'm not sure what you mean by "at scale" but ETH2 PoS has been operating for several months now, and currently has over 100,000 validators with over $6 billion staked.
    - ddrdrck_ 6y ago
      Have a look at cosmos.network for successful decentralized dPoS network. Also Binance chain is built using Cosmos SDK, one could argue it is not decentralized enough, but it is certainly secure enough.
  - zapdrive 6y ago
    > PoS if implemented with the correct incentives is as secure as PoW. Lol. And we're just supposed to believe you, right? Show me one POS which is as secure as POW.
- capableweb 6y ago
  While slightly out of date by now (doesn't have the latest years) and only having data from two sources (localbitcoins & paxful), this research from CoinDesk shows that the P2P market for cryptocurrencies have been growing solidly in the "unbanked" world, especially Venezuela: https://observablehq.com/@coindesk-research/localbitcoins-paxful-activity-map https://observablehq.com/@coindesk-research/localbitcoins-pa...
  - Ceezy 6y ago
    Thanks do you have any with the number of unique account? I'm not too sure volumes of bitcoin means anything if people use it illegally.
    - capableweb 6y ago
      That's a good idea, but even if I did, I don't think it would give a fair view and creating new accounts/addresses is cheap enough. So someone holding a lot of volume is most likely not holding it in the same address.
brighton36 6y ago
Its probable that everything you've ever heard about crypto, is a post-hoc justification. That 'number go up' is the result we all want. And anything that's said about the matter, was said because 'number go up' is the technology behind blockchain.
- SI_Rob 6y ago
  Sigh. If any of the downvoters knew how well connected parent commenter is (as in, has had years of extensive and direct communications with) basically everyone of note in crypto, Buterin included. Many of these discussions are published, as well. He's choosing to use a handle here on HN so I'll just leave it at that. This perspective is blunt, but correct. Crypto is successful primarily by virtue of its unregulated rube goldberg casino revenue model, with just enough of a plausible tech veneer to allow people to rationalize behavior otherwise indistinguishable from naked gambling. Crypto does not solve the centralization of leverage over liquidity (and thus the ability of a few to manipulate the wealth of many), which is the sole centralization "problem" that matters to the vast majority of people who would use it. Take away the Potemkin decentralization apparatus known as a blockchain (the premise of which holds that The State and its central bank minions are the only centralizing agents capable of public harm) and you are left with plain old unsexy digital currency.
Geee 6y ago
However, it's important to notice that Ethereum is not money. It doesn't have a clear monetary policy, and it has a major utility risk, making it a bad store of value. It solves completely different problem than Bitcoin. No one really knows what problem it solves, but it's getting there.
- dgellow 6y ago
  Storing “value” in a crypto currency is a concept I will never understand. What value do you store? How can you store value in something that can drop by 20% in a few hours? It seems to me to be a way to say “put your money there and it will eventually become more”, which is just speculation, and not a store of anything. Edit: to add to that, how is Bitcoin a store of value if a bear market is >90% lower than a bull market? That seems to be a meme that people repeat to justify their Bitcoin bet, but I don’t see how that makes sense.
  - Geee 6y ago
    It has all the properties of a store of value. Scarcity, durability, portability, fungibility and divisibility. If we compare assets on their fundamental properties, then we arrive at the conclusion that bitcoin is the best asset for storing value. Then, markets decide the relative value to other assets by buying and selling. The upwards movement in price discovery will continue until value from inferior assets, such as gold and real estate, has transferred to bitcoin. After that, bitcoin's price will stabilize around $15 million per bitcoin, and continue increasing with economic growth.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - wmf 6y ago
    The trough tends to be higher than the previous peak so if you're willing to hold for ~5 years it has been a good investment. Even that has to end eventually though.
    - dgellow 6y ago
dang 6y ago
> Just waiting on the HN hate of crypto to pile in here Please omit flamebait from your comments here. Nothing good can come of it! Even if other commenters are annoying, we all need to learn the discipline not to react to annoyance—and especially not to pre-react to pre-annoyance. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Ceezy 6y ago

Hate? So when you do POS what happened to the supposed bullet proof security of of crypto coins? Cause I m not to sure how that's compatible. Also I would like to see the chart of adoption of these cryptos in unbanked countries/populations.

fasteddie31003 6y ago
POS = "Proof of stake" here, not the more common use of POS. PoS if implemented with the correct incentives is as secure as PoW. I don't have much faith in crypto helping unbanked populations, as there is a pretty high learning curve. You can easily wipe away all your money if you do a step wrong or loose a private key.
- _jjkk 6y ago
  It is yet to be proven if it is "as secure" because no PoS network has operated at scale. It also certainly defeats much of the original purpose of decentralization when a few stakeholders have total control of the network because they hold the most coins... Regardless if the network has "correct incentives" or not, things can happen to those stakeholders outside their control, or other incentives could easily develop to act in bad faith against the network.
  - Shoue 6y ago
    > It also certainly defeats much of the original purpose of decentralization when a few stakeholders have total control of the network because they hold the most coins... As opposed to a few stakeholders that have total control of the network because they hold the most computational power? And before you bring up mining pools, you can replicate that in Proof of Stake by creating staking pools.
  - DennisP 6y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean by "at scale" but ETH2 PoS has been operating for several months now, and currently has over 100,000 validators with over $6 billion staked.
  - ddrdrck_ 6y ago
    Have a look at cosmos.network for successful decentralized dPoS network. Also Binance chain is built using Cosmos SDK, one could argue it is not decentralized enough, but it is certainly secure enough.
- zapdrive 6y ago
  > PoS if implemented with the correct incentives is as secure as PoW. Lol. And we're just supposed to believe you, right? Show me one POS which is as secure as POW.
capableweb 6y ago
While slightly out of date by now (doesn't have the latest years) and only having data from two sources (localbitcoins & paxful), this research from CoinDesk shows that the P2P market for cryptocurrencies have been growing solidly in the "unbanked" world, especially Venezuela: https://observablehq.com/@coindesk-research/localbitcoins-paxful-activity-map https://observablehq.com/@coindesk-research/localbitcoins-pa...
- Ceezy 6y ago
  Thanks do you have any with the number of unique account? I'm not too sure volumes of bitcoin means anything if people use it illegally.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    That's a good idea, but even if I did, I don't think it would give a fair view and creating new accounts/addresses is cheap enough. So someone holding a lot of volume is most likely not holding it in the same address.

brighton36 6y ago

Its probable that everything you've ever heard about crypto, is a post-hoc justification. That 'number go up' is the result we all want. And anything that's said about the matter, was said because 'number go up' is the technology behind blockchain.

SI_Rob 6y ago
Sigh. If any of the downvoters knew how well connected parent commenter is (as in, has had years of extensive and direct communications with) basically everyone of note in crypto, Buterin included. Many of these discussions are published, as well. He's choosing to use a handle here on HN so I'll just leave it at that. This perspective is blunt, but correct. Crypto is successful primarily by virtue of its unregulated rube goldberg casino revenue model, with just enough of a plausible tech veneer to allow people to rationalize behavior otherwise indistinguishable from naked gambling. Crypto does not solve the centralization of leverage over liquidity (and thus the ability of a few to manipulate the wealth of many), which is the sole centralization "problem" that matters to the vast majority of people who would use it. Take away the Potemkin decentralization apparatus known as a blockchain (the premise of which holds that The State and its central bank minions are the only centralizing agents capable of public harm) and you are left with plain old unsexy digital currency.

Geee 6y ago

However, it's important to notice that Ethereum is not money. It doesn't have a clear monetary policy, and it has a major utility risk, making it a bad store of value. It solves completely different problem than Bitcoin. No one really knows what problem it solves, but it's getting there.

dgellow 6y ago
Storing “value” in a crypto currency is a concept I will never understand. What value do you store? How can you store value in something that can drop by 20% in a few hours? It seems to me to be a way to say “put your money there and it will eventually become more”, which is just speculation, and not a store of anything. Edit: to add to that, how is Bitcoin a store of value if a bear market is >90% lower than a bull market? That seems to be a meme that people repeat to justify their Bitcoin bet, but I don’t see how that makes sense.
- Geee 6y ago
  It has all the properties of a store of value. Scarcity, durability, portability, fungibility and divisibility. If we compare assets on their fundamental properties, then we arrive at the conclusion that bitcoin is the best asset for storing value. Then, markets decide the relative value to other assets by buying and selling. The upwards movement in price discovery will continue until value from inferior assets, such as gold and real estate, has transferred to bitcoin. After that, bitcoin's price will stabilize around $15 million per bitcoin, and continue increasing with economic growth.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- wmf 6y ago
  The trough tends to be higher than the previous peak so if you're willing to hold for ~5 years it has been a good investment. Even that has to end eventually though.
  - dgellow 6y ago

dang 6y ago

> Just waiting on the HN hate of crypto to pile in here Please omit flamebait from your comments here. Nothing good can come of it! Even if other commenters are annoying, we all need to learn the discipline not to react to annoyance—and especially not to pre-react to pre-annoyance. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html