4 ms·

> Why should Apple decide what part I put in the phone? If the phone is out of warranty then I should be able to use batteries, screens, chargers or software th

by zepto 6y ago

> Why should Apple decide what part I put in the phone? If the phone is out of warranty then I should be able to use batteries, screens, chargers or software that is not blessed by Apple's grace. For a lot of people, this is a feature, not a bug. It prevents repair shops using substandard components, or even replacing good components with cheaper ones and then re-selling them. Edit: another much more serious issue, is security. 3rd party components are an obvious target for supply chain attacks.

simion314 6y ago
That is also the risk with computers and cars, there might be "a lot" of people that would like DRM cars and computers but there are a lot more lots of people that would like to repair the car then buy a new one each year, or even the rich guys that buy a new car yearly they would like to be able to sell the old car and you can't sell an old car if it does not run because it needs a new memory stick in the main computer and the main computer costs 50% of the car.
- zepto 6y ago
  > there might be "a lot" of people that would like DRM cars and computers but there are a lot more lots of people that would like to repair the car then buy a new one each year, This isn’t a valid comparison - nobody is forced to buy a new car or phone every year. I strongly doubt you are right about the numbers in general. Very few people want to risk fraudulent parts. But, I do agree that at some point the user should be able to unlock the DRM and take their own risks. E.g. at the end of the manufacturers support of the software.
  - simion314 6y ago
    Sorry I do not understand your point, nobody is forced to buy a phone or car each year, the difference is that I can change the lights on my car with an "unofficial" part if I want without Ford complaining that I am a pirate and trying to void my engine warranty. I have all the possible options with my car: - go to a Ford shop and have them do it for me - go to a reputable website and browse all compatible parts and decide if I want something more e pensive or something more cheap - when I have the part I can install it myself, a friend or a professional that is not a "Ford" genius. Ford would love to force me to buy only from them parts, oils, fuel and only repair or do maintenance on their shops but fortunately they can't force us. (but you have the choice to use only Ford blessed products and people). For stolen cars there are serial numbers printed on the car engine and body parts to make it more difficult for thieves but sure it still happens and I am for doing more to prevent crime and finding the criminals but doing exactly what Ford would like and is bad for society and environment is clearly a bad thing IMO.
    - zepto 6y ago
      We aren’t talking about cars. As I said earlier, they aren’t a valid comparison. Computers and cars are quite different in their components, and life cycle.
      - simion314 6y ago
        I disagree. But let me know how do you define the line where this electronics should be repairable and the other ones should be DRM locked.
        zepto 6y ago
        Personally I think the user should choose whether to buy a secure product or not. I have some open hardware for certain projects, but I am very happy to use Apple products for things like banking and various tasks concerning personal data. I’m also happy to recommend that non-technical friends use Apple products knowing that the ways that can harm themselves are limited. I think a lot of people would take a device to a repair kiosk, not understanding the risks, wrongly assuming that they would have some kind of consumer protection. You aren’t forced to buy an iPhone if you don’t want this.
        simion314 6y ago
        >You aren’t forced to buy an iPhone if you don’t want this. Other Android devices are also similarly bad to repair, with a locked Store and few have an supported way to actually root them. The mobile market is not as diverse like car market or say web/cloud hosting market. We can't give Apple or Samsung an exception from warranty laws because "the user should buy X that offers warranty" , free market only works only if all the free market assumptions hold true.
        zepto 6y ago
        > with a locked Store and few have an supported way to actually root them This has nothing to do with repairability. > We can't give Apple or Samsung an exception from warranty laws We don’t, so it’s not clear why you’re even saying this.
patmcc 6y ago
Sure - then Apple should be forced to provide those parts at reasonable prices. You want me to only use an "official" battery? Then you can sell me an Apple one for the same price as a knock-off.
- zepto 6y ago
  > Sure - then Apple should be forced to provide those parts at reasonable prices. Is there any product you wouldn’t want to apply price controls to, or force people to make? How are you singling out one company? > You want me to only use an "official" battery? Then you can sell me an Apple one for the same price as a knock-off. This makes no sense. Knocks offs are cheaper because they didn’t invest in R&D, don’t have to be in compliance with global regulations, can make use of lower standard parts, and don’t have Apple’s warranty. Their suppliers also have zero interest in protecting you from supply chain attacks.
  - patmcc 6y ago
    In terms of "right to repair", Apple is a big offender, and the top one people think of - that's the reason I was singling them out. And no, I don't think we should force a company to sell a product for a particular price, or keep making it - unless they don't allow generic parts to work in their devices. That's my suggestion - Apple can give consumers the "right to repair" (and compete on all those features you mention with their first-party parts) or they can suffer the penalties (which is my suggestion for a company unwilling to allow repairs of their devices). Think of it in terms of cars - if you bought a Honda car, would it be acceptable for it to not start if you put the "wrong brand" of tires on it?
    - zepto 6y ago
      > In terms of "right to repair", Apple is a big offender Not really. > Think of it in terms of cars - Computers are really not like cars... > if you bought a Honda car, would it be acceptable for it to not start if you put the "wrong brand" of tires on it? ...If tires were vulnerable to supply chain attacks, then not only would it be acceptable, some customers would demand it.

by zepto 6y ago

simion314 6y ago

That is also the risk with computers and cars, there might be "a lot" of people that would like DRM cars and computers but there are a lot more lots of people that would like to repair the car then buy a new one each year, or even the rich guys that buy a new car yearly they would like to be able to sell the old car and you can't sell an old car if it does not run because it needs a new memory stick in the main computer and the main computer costs 50% of the car.

zepto 6y ago
> there might be "a lot" of people that would like DRM cars and computers but there are a lot more lots of people that would like to repair the car then buy a new one each year, This isn’t a valid comparison - nobody is forced to buy a new car or phone every year. I strongly doubt you are right about the numbers in general. Very few people want to risk fraudulent parts. But, I do agree that at some point the user should be able to unlock the DRM and take their own risks. E.g. at the end of the manufacturers support of the software.
- simion314 6y ago
  Sorry I do not understand your point, nobody is forced to buy a phone or car each year, the difference is that I can change the lights on my car with an "unofficial" part if I want without Ford complaining that I am a pirate and trying to void my engine warranty. I have all the possible options with my car: - go to a Ford shop and have them do it for me - go to a reputable website and browse all compatible parts and decide if I want something more e pensive or something more cheap - when I have the part I can install it myself, a friend or a professional that is not a "Ford" genius. Ford would love to force me to buy only from them parts, oils, fuel and only repair or do maintenance on their shops but fortunately they can't force us. (but you have the choice to use only Ford blessed products and people). For stolen cars there are serial numbers printed on the car engine and body parts to make it more difficult for thieves but sure it still happens and I am for doing more to prevent crime and finding the criminals but doing exactly what Ford would like and is bad for society and environment is clearly a bad thing IMO.
  - zepto 6y ago
    We aren’t talking about cars. As I said earlier, they aren’t a valid comparison. Computers and cars are quite different in their components, and life cycle.
    - simion314 6y ago
      I disagree. But let me know how do you define the line where this electronics should be repairable and the other ones should be DRM locked.
      - zepto 6y ago
        Personally I think the user should choose whether to buy a secure product or not. I have some open hardware for certain projects, but I am very happy to use Apple products for things like banking and various tasks concerning personal data. I’m also happy to recommend that non-technical friends use Apple products knowing that the ways that can harm themselves are limited. I think a lot of people would take a device to a repair kiosk, not understanding the risks, wrongly assuming that they would have some kind of consumer protection. You aren’t forced to buy an iPhone if you don’t want this.
        simion314 6y ago
        >You aren’t forced to buy an iPhone if you don’t want this. Other Android devices are also similarly bad to repair, with a locked Store and few have an supported way to actually root them. The mobile market is not as diverse like car market or say web/cloud hosting market. We can't give Apple or Samsung an exception from warranty laws because "the user should buy X that offers warranty" , free market only works only if all the free market assumptions hold true.
        zepto 6y ago
        > with a locked Store and few have an supported way to actually root them This has nothing to do with repairability. > We can't give Apple or Samsung an exception from warranty laws We don’t, so it’s not clear why you’re even saying this.

patmcc 6y ago

Sure - then Apple should be forced to provide those parts at reasonable prices. You want me to only use an "official" battery? Then you can sell me an Apple one for the same price as a knock-off.

zepto 6y ago
> Sure - then Apple should be forced to provide those parts at reasonable prices. Is there any product you wouldn’t want to apply price controls to, or force people to make? How are you singling out one company? > You want me to only use an "official" battery? Then you can sell me an Apple one for the same price as a knock-off. This makes no sense. Knocks offs are cheaper because they didn’t invest in R&D, don’t have to be in compliance with global regulations, can make use of lower standard parts, and don’t have Apple’s warranty. Their suppliers also have zero interest in protecting you from supply chain attacks.
- patmcc 6y ago
  In terms of "right to repair", Apple is a big offender, and the top one people think of - that's the reason I was singling them out. And no, I don't think we should force a company to sell a product for a particular price, or keep making it - unless they don't allow generic parts to work in their devices. That's my suggestion - Apple can give consumers the "right to repair" (and compete on all those features you mention with their first-party parts) or they can suffer the penalties (which is my suggestion for a company unwilling to allow repairs of their devices). Think of it in terms of cars - if you bought a Honda car, would it be acceptable for it to not start if you put the "wrong brand" of tires on it?
  - zepto 6y ago
    > In terms of "right to repair", Apple is a big offender Not really. > Think of it in terms of cars - Computers are really not like cars... > if you bought a Honda car, would it be acceptable for it to not start if you put the "wrong brand" of tires on it? ...If tires were vulnerable to supply chain attacks, then not only would it be acceptable, some customers would demand it.