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Deathbeds are where people have maximum experience and low incentive to lie. Nothing magical. Louis XIV saying "I loved war too much" on his deathbed gives a pe

by Iv 6y ago

Deathbeds are where people have maximum experience and low incentive to lie. Nothing magical. Louis XIV saying "I loved war too much" on his deathbed gives a perspective to his life achievements.

keiferski 6y ago
There is plenty of incentive to lie on your deathbed. A lot of people spend their entire lives worrying about how they’ll be remembered.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- thesteamboat 6y ago
  But crucially, the incentives are different than those people have in the middle of their lives. Most people's usual incentives lead to them optimizing for the short-to-medium term future, i.e. the next couple of months or years. People on their deathbed will optimize either for the extremely short term (finishing this conversation) or the extremely long term (the last chance to affect how they'll be remembered). This suggests that if people lie on their death bed, they'll lie in different ways than ordinarily. Even if you can't take deathbed statements as unvarnished truth, their differences from everyday statements can be revealing.
- jjk166 6y ago
  For the dying, caring about other's perception is a luxury. For the living, it is a necessity. Any incentive to lie on your death bed is irrationally self imposed, which is not to say that it doesn't happen but that it doesn't have to.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
People lie. On their deathbeds with the sense of impending finality they will do their damndest to come up with anything at all to feel better. Lie to God (I'll convert! I'll be a better person!), lie to their spouse (I was always faithful, and always loved you!), lie to themselves (It's not that bad! I'll live.) Pack any situation with emotion and adrenaline, you'll get world-class mental gymnastics. Look at the exceptional efforts even animals put out when mortally threatened. The burst of energy and struggle seems like it would be epic. Including struggling with the truth.
- tartoran 6y ago
  People lie as in "some people lie". That sounds like a narcissist what you are describing there.
  - nullserver 6y ago
    Some people lie like they breathe, it’s automatic, and doesn’t have any meaning. It’s not meant to be malicious.
    - jolux 6y ago
      Does the intent really matter?
      - hc-taway 6y ago
        > Well said, Cephalus, I replied; but as concerning justice, what is it? --to speak the truth and to pay your debts --no more than this? And even to this are there not exceptions? Suppose that a friend when in his right mind has deposited arms with me and he asks for them when he is not in his right mind, ought I to give them back to him? No one would say that I ought or that I should be right in doing so, any more than they would say that I ought always to speak the truth to one who is in his condition. Intent very much matters. It's right there at the beginning of the reading on the topic. (The Republic, Book I)
        JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        Nice example, I remember that from Ethics back in college. But there's lots of Greeks that would say Yes! Give them their weapons. See, you have no right to decide another's state of mind is 'not right'. That's taking their agency from them, treating them like an incompetent child. Like trying to 'murder their Self' or some such. You can say for instance "I know where they are but you're upset. Can we talk about this before you do something you'll regret?"
      - codyb 6y ago
pwinnski 6y ago
I'm very curious about your assumption that dying people have low incentive to lie. How do you figure? It seems as if nearing the moment of death might make people desperate to represent themselves as better people, more noble than their lived experiences might have shown them to be. I certainly have ideals to which I fail to live up, and while dying I might express those ideal to those around me, since observing my life may not have made those ideals obvious to observers. Lying might or might not even enter into it, but I also don't see any reason why dying people wouldn't lie just as often as those who don't realize they're dying.
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  For example, a dying person may say: "I regret every day I spent at work; the career was absolutely not worth it; I wish I would have spent more time with my friends and family" without being worried about potential impact on their future employment. Dying can give you the ultimate form of freedom of speech, when you are also free from the consequences. I agree that a person who cares about how they will be remembered has an incentive to lie. But is it greater than before that?
  - arrrg 6y ago
    That seems to be highly dependent on your own psychological state and disposition … To me it seems just as plausible that you don’t really want to think of all the bad times, all the bad decisions you made. Your hypothesis requires a certain point of view that a dying person doesn’t necessarily have.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    In that example, the statement is both useless and also possibly still dishonest. While I might be free in that context of worrying about future employers, I might also feel heavily constrained by the presence of my family and friends. How many people would feel free enough to say the following? "If I had spent more time with my family, they would have driven me absolutely crazy. I got so much more respect and fulfillment as a person at work than I ever did with friends and family. My only real regret is that I left that one job early to spend more time with my kids when they were teens, and they didn't even want to spend any time with me, and I missed that job." Surely there are people who feel that way, but that kind of honesty in that context is not met kindly, so instead everybody says they wish they had spent time with family. Maybe it's true. Then again, most people who choose to quit their jobs and stay home end up facing money troubles, which doesn't lead to happy times with family, so inasmuch as it's true, it's empty. I mean, let's say someone suddenly and unexpectedly recovers. Are they going to then, in fact, quit their job and spend all of their time with their family and friends? Is that feasible? Is that actually what they want? Is that actually what their family and friends want? I think there is generally just as much motivation to lie as there is for any person's entire life, just about different things, or in a different way. For the same reason, too! Most people still care what others think of them, even up to the moment of death.
watwut 6y ago
They still lie for emotional reasons. Because of what they want you to remember about them or because setting old scores and what not. And it is also the time when they are in pain, under influence of various drugs that doctors prescribed to manage pain, confused about where they are, because sickness or injury make them so.

by Iv 6y ago

Deathbeds are where people have maximum experience and low incentive to lie. Nothing magical. Louis XIV saying "I loved war too much" on his deathbed gives a perspective to his life achievements.

keiferski 6y ago

There is plenty of incentive to lie on your deathbed. A lot of people spend their entire lives worrying about how they’ll be remembered.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
thesteamboat 6y ago
But crucially, the incentives are different than those people have in the middle of their lives. Most people's usual incentives lead to them optimizing for the short-to-medium term future, i.e. the next couple of months or years. People on their deathbed will optimize either for the extremely short term (finishing this conversation) or the extremely long term (the last chance to affect how they'll be remembered). This suggests that if people lie on their death bed, they'll lie in different ways than ordinarily. Even if you can't take deathbed statements as unvarnished truth, their differences from everyday statements can be revealing.
jjk166 6y ago
For the dying, caring about other's perception is a luxury. For the living, it is a necessity. Any incentive to lie on your death bed is irrationally self imposed, which is not to say that it doesn't happen but that it doesn't have to.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

People lie. On their deathbeds with the sense of impending finality they will do their damndest to come up with anything at all to feel better. Lie to God (I'll convert! I'll be a better person!), lie to their spouse (I was always faithful, and always loved you!), lie to themselves (It's not that bad! I'll live.) Pack any situation with emotion and adrenaline, you'll get world-class mental gymnastics. Look at the exceptional efforts even animals put out when mortally threatened. The burst of energy and struggle seems like it would be epic. Including struggling with the truth.

tartoran 6y ago
People lie as in "some people lie". That sounds like a narcissist what you are describing there.
- nullserver 6y ago
  Some people lie like they breathe, it’s automatic, and doesn’t have any meaning. It’s not meant to be malicious.
  - jolux 6y ago
    Does the intent really matter?
    - hc-taway 6y ago
      > Well said, Cephalus, I replied; but as concerning justice, what is it? --to speak the truth and to pay your debts --no more than this? And even to this are there not exceptions? Suppose that a friend when in his right mind has deposited arms with me and he asks for them when he is not in his right mind, ought I to give them back to him? No one would say that I ought or that I should be right in doing so, any more than they would say that I ought always to speak the truth to one who is in his condition. Intent very much matters. It's right there at the beginning of the reading on the topic. (The Republic, Book I)
      - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        Nice example, I remember that from Ethics back in college. But there's lots of Greeks that would say Yes! Give them their weapons. See, you have no right to decide another's state of mind is 'not right'. That's taking their agency from them, treating them like an incompetent child. Like trying to 'murder their Self' or some such. You can say for instance "I know where they are but you're upset. Can we talk about this before you do something you'll regret?"
    - codyb 6y ago

pwinnski 6y ago

I'm very curious about your assumption that dying people have low incentive to lie. How do you figure? It seems as if nearing the moment of death might make people desperate to represent themselves as better people, more noble than their lived experiences might have shown them to be. I certainly have ideals to which I fail to live up, and while dying I might express those ideal to those around me, since observing my life may not have made those ideals obvious to observers. Lying might or might not even enter into it, but I also don't see any reason why dying people wouldn't lie just as often as those who don't realize they're dying.

Viliam1234 6y ago
For example, a dying person may say: "I regret every day I spent at work; the career was absolutely not worth it; I wish I would have spent more time with my friends and family" without being worried about potential impact on their future employment. Dying can give you the ultimate form of freedom of speech, when you are also free from the consequences. I agree that a person who cares about how they will be remembered has an incentive to lie. But is it greater than before that?
- arrrg 6y ago
  That seems to be highly dependent on your own psychological state and disposition … To me it seems just as plausible that you don’t really want to think of all the bad times, all the bad decisions you made. Your hypothesis requires a certain point of view that a dying person doesn’t necessarily have.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  In that example, the statement is both useless and also possibly still dishonest. While I might be free in that context of worrying about future employers, I might also feel heavily constrained by the presence of my family and friends. How many people would feel free enough to say the following? "If I had spent more time with my family, they would have driven me absolutely crazy. I got so much more respect and fulfillment as a person at work than I ever did with friends and family. My only real regret is that I left that one job early to spend more time with my kids when they were teens, and they didn't even want to spend any time with me, and I missed that job." Surely there are people who feel that way, but that kind of honesty in that context is not met kindly, so instead everybody says they wish they had spent time with family. Maybe it's true. Then again, most people who choose to quit their jobs and stay home end up facing money troubles, which doesn't lead to happy times with family, so inasmuch as it's true, it's empty. I mean, let's say someone suddenly and unexpectedly recovers. Are they going to then, in fact, quit their job and spend all of their time with their family and friends? Is that feasible? Is that actually what they want? Is that actually what their family and friends want? I think there is generally just as much motivation to lie as there is for any person's entire life, just about different things, or in a different way. For the same reason, too! Most people still care what others think of them, even up to the moment of death.

watwut 6y ago

They still lie for emotional reasons. Because of what they want you to remember about them or because setting old scores and what not. And it is also the time when they are in pain, under influence of various drugs that doctors prescribed to manage pain, confused about where they are, because sickness or injury make them so.