5 ms·

So, let me get this straight - you lie about your job requirements, but get all bent out of shape when the candidates lie right back at you? Brilliant. I can’

So, let me get this straight - you lie about your job requirements, but get all bent out of shape when the candidates lie right back at you? Brilliant. I can’t think of a better example of why hiring is broken; of how unequal the power dynamic is between employers and employees.

rkalla 6y ago
Is anyone surprised FB has this culture? This would be like me leaving little breadcrumbs of an affair for my SO to find and then have it all culminate in an "AH HA! I caught you snooping!" when they call me out on it. So... healthy...
- jefftk 6y ago
  This isn't a post from Facebook Inc, this is a post from a random person on Facebook.
- mrits 6y ago
  I am, seeing how it has nothing to do with FB
  - dvtrn 6y ago
    Is anyone surprised someone commented without reading the content?
    - pavel_lishin 6y ago
      Frost1X has seven years' experience reading that comment.
- csemaan 6y ago
  Is anyone surprised people have the culture of bashing FB right or wrong?
jefftk 6y ago
You don't list it as a requirement; list it as something that would be nice to have.
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  I was just thinking this. If it's labeled as an optional skill or something like that, I see nothing wrong with it. Applicant has no reason to lie about it. Have confidence in their other skills. At the same time, we have this new thing called search engines. If a language can't be found, they'll probably figure out that it's trap. Even better for the company. A person who won't lie and/or can research out BS for themselves. Pretty good candidate thus far. Devs are supposed to be self-reliant to a degree. A good question for the interviewee to ask the interviewer too. If it's labeled a "requirement", yea, they were inviting dishonesty. No one should bother to apply since they don't qualify instantly.
  - wanderingstan 6y ago
    > If a language can't be found, they'll probably figure out that it's trap. If you're a qualified dev, you'd more likely conclude that it's a mistake on the part of whoever wrote the listing. I've seen skills listed like "Microsoft UML" or "Python, PHD, Nodes", so wouldn't think much of seeing "MOVA".
    - kirykl 6y ago
      Job listing at old company once required COBALT experience.
      - falcolas 6y ago
        Good ol' Blue Iron (an old moniker for IBM mainframes, thanks to their coloring).
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    > If a language can't be found, they'll probably figure out that it's trap. Eh... maybe, but there are obscure languages/platforms that don't search well.
hashkb 6y ago
Agree with the first part, obviously, but: why shouldn't there be an unequal power dynamic between employers and candidates? Isn't that sort of true by definition in employment?
- falcolas 6y ago
  No. Employment is a trade between two entities. The employee gives labor, the employer compensates them. Ideally, the two negotiate a contract laying out the terms of employment, and move on. However, corporations typically don't offer any form of contract negotiations, at least in the US. An employee is often offered a take-it-or-leave-it contract with lots of non-compete and broad IP assignment riders, and their pay is usually based on their previous pay, not the value of their work. Some folk claim that they're able to negotiate around these, but I've personally never found negotiation to work. Two of my favorite answers I've received from negotiation are (paraphrased): "The IP assignment for 1 year post employment is not negotiable." and, "We know what you made at your last job, so we'll offer you that."
  - badRNG 6y ago
    The fact that individual employees have little negotiating power with a large business is one of the conditions that give rise to collective bargaining agreements and unions.
    - hashkb 6y ago
      Thank you. Other than unions, I don't see any other solution to the fundamental imbalance. It's (group + resources) vs (group + resources) until groups with the most resources decide they want to be nice. Until that becomes a reality, via regulation or epiphany or whatever, any expectation that it's not David vs Goliath is naive.
      - rurp 6y ago
        I totally agree with you on the general dynamics, but would add govt regulation as another potential balancer. The govt can require things like breaks, overtime pay, and safety conditions that would otherwise have to be negotiated (often unsuccessfully) by employees. Also, providing a stronger economic safety net gives employees more bargaining power, since it decreases their downside risk.
Frost1x 6y ago
The entire hiring process is laughable. Few positions advertise correctly. Most claim they need diety level abilities for as little as they can get away with. Businesses post phantom advertisements to gauge the perceived market value of positions, keep talent pools of people in the wing to fill in what seem to be increasing turnover rates, and so on. Most of all of this is an artifact of businesses trying to commoditize human labor, including professional/specialized skills, and these are the sort of responses and gaming you see in such an artificial environment. Intelligent people are going to fight back and game your system when you try to game them. The side with leverage that dictates the rules of engagement is to blame here and that isn't the labor force at large since there is almost no organization from the labor force, it's the employers that create this mess yet they complain about it continuously.
Spooky23 6y ago
For an employee, doing this is nuts. I’ve worked with body shop contracts at big orgs where the subcontractors are pure scum and will send fake people, etc. if you’re forced to deal with something like that, you need controls to detect deceit so you can take action.
theptip 6y ago
Welcome to game theory! In an iterated prisoner's dilemma where everyone is already defecting, then defecting is the optimal strategy.
smoe 6y ago
Someone currently working on a new language should grab that name. Not bad to from the get go to be able to put a name like Facebook as a heavy user of your technology on the landing page ... Edit: and then go to an interview at Facebook and claim not just that you are an expert in this language but the creator
- foota 6y ago
  The post is not by Facebook.
  - smoe 6y ago
    Argh, somehow I completely missed that skimming it on the phone during lunch :/
    - Cd00d 6y ago
      I made the same mistake on desktop.
cptskippy 6y ago
These are the games played when Recruiters and HR are involved in the solicitation of resumes. HR will demand 20 years Swift experience, and Recruiters will pad your resume with 30 years. Most experienced interviewees will show up to a face-to-face with copies of their resume in hand because of the way Recruiters fudge things.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  Most experienced interviewees will show up to a face-to-face with copies of their resume in hand because of the way Recruiters fudge things. I had learnt this by my second or third job, I can't believe that other industries operate this way, doctors, lawyers, accountants, civil engineers, etc.
knodi 6y ago
Haha, this!!
3minus1 6y ago
It's not that bad. Real hypocrisy would be lying about how great the job is to get better candidates, and then getting upset when the candidates lie about how qualified they are to get better jobs.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  Real hypocrisy would be lying about how great the job is to get better candidates, and then getting upset when the candidates lie about how qualified they are to get better jobs. This happens a lot - it was a running joke for a while, it seemed that every recruiters was touting "functional programming" for what were actually very normal corporate software jobs, with the promise that if you just did a few years of Java then maybe, maybe the company would think about Clojure one day in the future!
hinkley 6y ago
And this has been going on forever. I remember people asking for X years of Java experience and thinking, "Gosling was still calling it Oak X years ago and if you want any of his team members you're going to have to double your starting offer."

rkalla 6y ago

Is anyone surprised FB has this culture? This would be like me leaving little breadcrumbs of an affair for my SO to find and then have it all culminate in an "AH HA! I caught you snooping!" when they call me out on it. So... healthy...

jefftk 6y ago
This isn't a post from Facebook Inc, this is a post from a random person on Facebook.
mrits 6y ago
I am, seeing how it has nothing to do with FB
- dvtrn 6y ago
  Is anyone surprised someone commented without reading the content?
  - pavel_lishin 6y ago
    Frost1X has seven years' experience reading that comment.
csemaan 6y ago
Is anyone surprised people have the culture of bashing FB right or wrong?

jefftk 6y ago

You don't list it as a requirement; list it as something that would be nice to have.

NoOneNew 6y ago
I was just thinking this. If it's labeled as an optional skill or something like that, I see nothing wrong with it. Applicant has no reason to lie about it. Have confidence in their other skills. At the same time, we have this new thing called search engines. If a language can't be found, they'll probably figure out that it's trap. Even better for the company. A person who won't lie and/or can research out BS for themselves. Pretty good candidate thus far. Devs are supposed to be self-reliant to a degree. A good question for the interviewee to ask the interviewer too. If it's labeled a "requirement", yea, they were inviting dishonesty. No one should bother to apply since they don't qualify instantly.
- wanderingstan 6y ago
  > If a language can't be found, they'll probably figure out that it's trap. If you're a qualified dev, you'd more likely conclude that it's a mistake on the part of whoever wrote the listing. I've seen skills listed like "Microsoft UML" or "Python, PHD, Nodes", so wouldn't think much of seeing "MOVA".
  - kirykl 6y ago
    Job listing at old company once required COBALT experience.
    - falcolas 6y ago
      Good ol' Blue Iron (an old moniker for IBM mainframes, thanks to their coloring).
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  > If a language can't be found, they'll probably figure out that it's trap. Eh... maybe, but there are obscure languages/platforms that don't search well.

hashkb 6y ago

Agree with the first part, obviously, but: why shouldn't there be an unequal power dynamic between employers and candidates? Isn't that sort of true by definition in employment?

falcolas 6y ago
No. Employment is a trade between two entities. The employee gives labor, the employer compensates them. Ideally, the two negotiate a contract laying out the terms of employment, and move on. However, corporations typically don't offer any form of contract negotiations, at least in the US. An employee is often offered a take-it-or-leave-it contract with lots of non-compete and broad IP assignment riders, and their pay is usually based on their previous pay, not the value of their work. Some folk claim that they're able to negotiate around these, but I've personally never found negotiation to work. Two of my favorite answers I've received from negotiation are (paraphrased): "The IP assignment for 1 year post employment is not negotiable." and, "We know what you made at your last job, so we'll offer you that."
- badRNG 6y ago
  The fact that individual employees have little negotiating power with a large business is one of the conditions that give rise to collective bargaining agreements and unions.
  - hashkb 6y ago
    Thank you. Other than unions, I don't see any other solution to the fundamental imbalance. It's (group + resources) vs (group + resources) until groups with the most resources decide they want to be nice. Until that becomes a reality, via regulation or epiphany or whatever, any expectation that it's not David vs Goliath is naive.
    - rurp 6y ago
      I totally agree with you on the general dynamics, but would add govt regulation as another potential balancer. The govt can require things like breaks, overtime pay, and safety conditions that would otherwise have to be negotiated (often unsuccessfully) by employees. Also, providing a stronger economic safety net gives employees more bargaining power, since it decreases their downside risk.

Frost1x 6y ago

The entire hiring process is laughable. Few positions advertise correctly. Most claim they need diety level abilities for as little as they can get away with. Businesses post phantom advertisements to gauge the perceived market value of positions, keep talent pools of people in the wing to fill in what seem to be increasing turnover rates, and so on. Most of all of this is an artifact of businesses trying to commoditize human labor, including professional/specialized skills, and these are the sort of responses and gaming you see in such an artificial environment. Intelligent people are going to fight back and game your system when you try to game them. The side with leverage that dictates the rules of engagement is to blame here and that isn't the labor force at large since there is almost no organization from the labor force, it's the employers that create this mess yet they complain about it continuously.

Spooky23 6y ago

For an employee, doing this is nuts. I’ve worked with body shop contracts at big orgs where the subcontractors are pure scum and will send fake people, etc. if you’re forced to deal with something like that, you need controls to detect deceit so you can take action.

theptip 6y ago

Welcome to game theory! In an iterated prisoner's dilemma where everyone is already defecting, then defecting is the optimal strategy.

smoe 6y ago

Someone currently working on a new language should grab that name. Not bad to from the get go to be able to put a name like Facebook as a heavy user of your technology on the landing page ... Edit: and then go to an interview at Facebook and claim not just that you are an expert in this language but the creator

foota 6y ago
The post is not by Facebook.
- smoe 6y ago
  Argh, somehow I completely missed that skimming it on the phone during lunch :/
  - Cd00d 6y ago
    I made the same mistake on desktop.

cptskippy 6y ago

These are the games played when Recruiters and HR are involved in the solicitation of resumes. HR will demand 20 years Swift experience, and Recruiters will pad your resume with 30 years. Most experienced interviewees will show up to a face-to-face with copies of their resume in hand because of the way Recruiters fudge things.

goatinaboat 6y ago
Most experienced interviewees will show up to a face-to-face with copies of their resume in hand because of the way Recruiters fudge things. I had learnt this by my second or third job, I can't believe that other industries operate this way, doctors, lawyers, accountants, civil engineers, etc.

knodi 6y ago

Haha, this!!

3minus1 6y ago

It's not that bad. Real hypocrisy would be lying about how great the job is to get better candidates, and then getting upset when the candidates lie about how qualified they are to get better jobs.

goatinaboat 6y ago
Real hypocrisy would be lying about how great the job is to get better candidates, and then getting upset when the candidates lie about how qualified they are to get better jobs. This happens a lot - it was a running joke for a while, it seemed that every recruiters was touting "functional programming" for what were actually very normal corporate software jobs, with the promise that if you just did a few years of Java then maybe, maybe the company would think about Clojure one day in the future!

hinkley 6y ago

And this has been going on forever. I remember people asking for X years of Java experience and thinking, "Gosling was still calling it Oak X years ago and if you want any of his team members you're going to have to double your starting offer."